New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

mpinco

Expedition Leader
The new Luxury Defender / LR5 won't be enough to save JLR. Defender sales were already 'disappointing' (highly impacted by covid) but also now having to compete with Bronco and Grenadier. As several articles have highlighted $8B in debt, stagnant to declining sales, comatose Jaguar and a parent company Tata that is literally worth zero without JLR will drive them to a partnership and 'rationalization' which is code words for downsizing models and scale. In addition the automotive industry product delivery model is changing rapidly and will be impacting the local dealer/s. We will see if Ineos can take advantage of the disruption.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
I hear ya that the old one wasn’t profitable for LR to build by hand on the ancient assembly line, and that sales were nonexistent in the final few years, but I’d question the statement that the Defender was only and would only be a niche vehicle. Jeep sold over 200 thousand Wranglers (the closest one could get to buying a Defender in the US) in the US in 2019 alone! You’d think LR would kill to get some of that volume.

Will also be very interesting to see how the new Bronco fares - very similar to the Jeep with the soft top and such.

But maybe you’re right - Toyota wasn’t able to sustain sales of the FJ Cruiser . . . and we all know how that ended.

Anyhoo, hope that the new D is a success for LR and gives them some financial breathing room in this crazy COVID world. Time will tell.
The fallacy that the Defender was a direct competitor to the Wrangler and its predecessors somehow persists.

Jeep *is* America. Overseas it barely sells - the last generation of Defender outsold it in Europe until 2010, but from 2000 to 2016, in all of Europe (with the same population as the US), neither sold more than 10,000 units per year, with Jeep's best year in 2012 with a hair under 8,000 units. Both declined in sales with the recession, and only climbed again after the Defender was discontinued.

Land Rover does not wish to compete directly with the Jeep Wrangler and never has in America. Their niche is different and has been since the 90/110 were rebranded as Defender.
 
The fallacy that the Defender was a direct competitor to the Wrangler and its predecessors somehow persists.

Jeep *is* America. Overseas it barely sells - the last generation of Defender outsold it in Europe until 2010, but from 2000 to 2016, in all of Europe (with the same population as the US), neither sold more than 10,000 units per year, with Jeep's best year in 2012 with a hair under 8,000 units. Both declined in sales with the recession, and only climbed again after the Defender was discontinued.

Land Rover does not wish to compete directly with the Jeep Wrangler and never has in America. Their niche is different and has been since the 90/110 were rebranded as Defender.
Yeah, what a fallacy. Two coil-sprung, solid axle, soft top vehicles with nearly the same dimensions and capabilities were never competitors. Gotcha.

I'll concede that Land Rover (and in particular LRNA) doesn't want to compete with Jeep and never has (the unwashed, huddled masses! the horror!) . . . and the evolution of the new Defender certainly reflects that vision . . . but 200,000 plus units annually is an awfully deep market to purposefully ignore (how many units did Land Rover sell altogether in 2019?). And Jeep is certainly working to take their game more and more upmarket, at least here in 'Merica.

Will be very interesting to see how the Defender sells in the U.S. after the initial buzz wears off, with the Gladiator, the new Bronco, and potentially the Grenadier all out there as options. Will also be interesting to see how much the new Defender and the Discovery cannibalize each other's sales, and if the Baby Defender/Land Rover 80 ever comes to market (if that comes to pass, surely it will need its own rage/hate page). I wish LR well, but I do question their strategy a bit . . . they look to be in a tough spot with a lot of overlapping products right now.
 

garrycol

Member
Yes in Australia Jeeps are considered a bit of a joke, not because of their offroad capability but because of poor build quality, poor customer service and they have a reputation of bursting into flames - yes many catch fire here. Jeep has lost it here - even Jeep themselves have started advertising that they lost the Customer service battle and apologising for their failure - this is in their current national advertising campaign but it is too little too late as confidence in the brand has been lost. When a company makes a public apology you know they have lost it. Unfortunately the ad has not been uploaded to the internet but the link below outlines the new campaign - the still pic is actually the opening to the I'am Sorry Ad.

https://campaignbrief.com/jeep-aust...-trust-with-new-campaign-via-cumminspartners/
 
Yes in Australia Jeeps are considered a bit of a joke, not because of their offroad capability but because of poor build quality, poor customer service and they have a reputation of bursting into flames - yes many catch fire here. Jeep has lost it here - even Jeep themselves have started advertising that they lost the Customer service battle and apologising for their failure - this is in their current national advertising campaign but it is too little too late as confidence in the brand has been lost. When a company makes a public apology you know they have lost it. Unfortunately the ad has not been uploaded to the internet but the link below outlines the new campaign - the still pic is actually the opening to the I'am Sorry Ad.

https://campaignbrief.com/jeep-aust...-trust-with-new-campaign-via-cumminspartners/
Whoa, that’s not good! Thx for sharing!
 

Paddler Ed

Adventurer
Definition of Jeep in Australia:
Just Expect Every Problem
Just Empty Every Pocket

Hence their advertising campaign, a lot around how they're listening to customers but also how they're reducing their parts prices.
 

garrycol

Member
Here is an example.


This video got a lot of coverage in Australia and definitely damaged Jeep's reputation. By the end of 2019 Jeep sales had dropped dramatically, their CEO should have been sacked for boosting profits at the expense of after sales parts and service. Instead I guess that he got a bonus.
 
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DieselRanger

Well-known member
Yeah, what a fallacy. Two coil-sprung, solid axle, soft top vehicles with nearly the same dimensions and capabilities were never competitors. Gotcha.

I'll concede that Land Rover (and in particular LRNA) doesn't want to compete with Jeep and never has (the unwashed, huddled masses! the horror!) . . . and the evolution of the new Defender certainly reflects that vision . . . but 200,000 plus units annually is an awfully deep market to purposefully ignore (how many units did Land Rover sell altogether in 2019?). And Jeep is certainly working to take their game more and more upmarket, at least here in 'Merica.

Will be very interesting to see how the Defender sells in the U.S. after the initial buzz wears off, with the Gladiator, the new Bronco, and potentially the Grenadier all out there as options. Will also be interesting to see how much the new Defender and the Discovery cannibalize each other's sales, and if the Baby Defender/Land Rover 80 ever comes to market (if that comes to pass, surely it will need its own rage/hate page). I wish LR well, but I do question their strategy a bit . . . they look to be in a tough spot with a lot of overlapping products right now.
Jeep didn't make anything like this and still doesn't. The Defender was also more than twice the price of a Jeep and offered a V8 engine, never mind the configurability offered by the 110.

They were not competitors then, but Jeep would like them to be today.

091.jpg
 
Jeep didn't make anything like this and still doesn't. The Defender was also more than twice the price of a Jeep and offered a V8 engine, never mind the configurability offered by the 110.

They were not competitors then, but Jeep would like them to be today.

View attachment 596162
You can disagree and I'm absolutely fine with that. My take is that, all things considered, the 90 and the Wrangler were not terribly that different, price tag, upper crusty marketing, and old Rover V8 notwithstanding (obviously there was no competitor for the 110, but then again LR only brought 500 of them over, and kept them rare like diamonds). Maybe I was the only one, but I comparison shopped the two and, fresh out of school with student loans, didn't see the value proposition and bought a '96 Wrangler (facepalm). Perhaps surprisingly for our Australian friends, the Wrangler was a lot of fun, and did not burst into flames, grenade the transmission, or have failed welds. :) Had I been smarter, I would have bought a 90 and kept it forever, but sadly, I didn't have a crystal ball back then (still don't!).
 
And the irony, DieselRanger, of posting a coil sprung, solid axle D110 167 pages into this debate! :) Jeep "almost" made something like that, but they never brought their Jeep Afrika concept to market . . . and at the risk of adding another 20 pages to this beating a dead horse thread, one could argue that the Jeep Afrika is more of a spiritual successor to the old 110 than the new Defender is . . . but let's not go there! In any event, the new Defender is clearly much more differentiated from the Wrangler than the old Defender was . . . my original point was just to wonder if Land Rover was missing out on a pretty popular market segment, at least here in the U.S. Time will tell.

gallery-1426780082-cn015-021jptrsarhum0b2cuccshvnrbg0jo4.jpg
 
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JeepColorado

Well-known member
And the irony, DieselRanger, of posting a coil sprung, solid axle D110 167 pages into this debate! :) Jeep "almost" made something like that, but they never brought their Jeep Afrika concept to market . . . and at the risk of adding another 20 pages to this beating a dead horse thread, one could argue that the Jeep Afrika is more of a spiritual successor to the old 110 than the new Defender is . . . but let's not go there! In any event, the new Defender is clearly much more differentiated from the Wrangler than the old Defender was . . . my original point was just to wonder if Land Rover was missing out on a pretty popular market segment, at least here in the U.S. Time will tell.

View attachment 596231


You wouldn't be the first to observe that the Wrangler is the only one left to carry on the Original Defender Heritage

The consensus seems to be that the new "Defender" is no where close to carrying on that legacy (unfortunately, in my view) but the sizable hole that the "modern" "synergy" "design language" left has left room for more than one competitor to the space-

 

Carson G

Well-known member
Been thinking lately I don’t think the Defender has ever been Land Rovers halo vehicle. It’s always been the most rugged and customizable of the bunch and generally speaking the cheapest full size of the LR range. The Range Rover always got all the new tech first and then it got passed down to Discovery and Defender. I mean think about it. The Range Rover was the first LR on full coil springs and with 4 wheel disc brakes and in 92’ it was one of the first if not the first vehicle to have ETC and EAS. and Eventually Discovery and Defender were created and eventually got that tech as well. Really Defender has always been a stripped down more rugged Range Rover. Then Discovery was always kind of half and half. To finish off my thoughts for today the whole unibody and full independent suspension concept for the Defender came about way before McGovern IIRC the Dunsfold collection has the prototype. I say give Jeep 10 years at the maximum and the Wrangler will be just like the New Defender.
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
Here is an example.


This video got a lot of coverage in Australia and definitely damaged Jeep's reputation. By the end of 2019 Jeep sales had dropped dramatically, their CEO should have been sacked for boosting profits at the expense of after sales parts and service. Instead I guess that he got a bonus.
Whatever that minivan was, it wasn't a jeep. Serves the guy right, for buying a fake jeep.

If you Defender guys want, I can put a Rover badge on a Subaru Outback. Save ya some coin.
 

Corgi_express

Well-known member
Disregard my prior comment that wrongly said something about a Cherokee. I didn’t watch the video and the first result when I searched for this in the news wrongly said that it was a Cherokee he destroyed.
 
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