New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

blackangie

Well-known member
JLR needs to correct their QRA issues before they jump on the electrification bandwagon and release dozens of new models. If they don't it will bury them. Their warranty reputation and cost will force them to be even more of a urban only manufacturer.
Actually they have improved their quality by 180% over the last 20 years (until 2016) JDpower US. In the UK they now match Toyota.

You obviously dont own a new JLR vehicle because their warranty and thier roadside service has a great rep in AU.



Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

blackangie

Well-known member
No one is criticizing how it drives, only what has been presented so far, which is extensive data and media. I'm sure it drives quite nice, just like their other comfy little cars. It's probably even more capable than any modern LR. It's a decent Discovery 5, much better than that bloated crossover thing of the same name, but it's no Defender. An F150 is more of a Defender than the new Defender. Strong steel frame, aluminum body, ZF trans, similar hood shape, V8 & diesel options, various cab configurations, at least one solid axle, a bed (for actual work), and most of all, used by the same industry and government markets that LR abandoned. Ford is finishing up the Bronco to meet utility station wagon needs at this moment.
Actually they say its more capable and durable then the outgoing defender.

Have you driven an F150 offroad??

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Actually they have improved their quality by 180% over the last 20 years (until 2016) JDpower US. In the UK they now match Toyota.

You obviously dont own a new JLR vehicle because their warranty and thier roadside service has a great rep in AU.
Vehicle quality and reliability is a moving target. Your competitors are always getting better, as you should too. I'm sure the quality and reliability of a JLR product is higher than 20 years ago. That said, my 98's D1 just keeps motoring along with just the usual oil changes, brakes, hoses after 167K miles.

So time makes it sound good except for JLR when you read of an actual 2019 survey of 44,000 owners ..........

.....That's four times the average for all vehicles, described by experts at the consumer group as 'pretty shocking for such a new car'.

New JLR's, not 20 year old JLR's. And not just 'infotainment' as the experiences also include engine management issues. That 4X warranty cost is rolled up into selling price but even "Luxury" manufactures have to face the music sometime. When the market contracted it left JLR exposed on cost. Solution? Well accounting to write-off billions. That is a short term financial 'fix' that needs a long term solution.
 
The best 'roadside service' is never having to call roadside service.
Wellllll....... it depends why you are requesting roadside service... maybe you just need a refill... lol


Holland & Holland Rangie owners will have the vehicle's booze supply refilled automatically. Think of it like bottled water home delivery, only with single-malt scotch, small-batch gin, and other fine adult refreshments.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
People that come on and say they never have traction problems need to get out and try harder things. That is part of the fun, getting harder and harder until you can't get through. That is where you can compare different drivers and vehicles. If you have not taken your vehicle to that point and seen what other can do on that same obstacle, you really can't provide an informed opinion. I wheel all the time and with all Land Rover models. The current traction control seems like magic until you get to low traction surfaces, especially ones where wheelspin digs down. These are where it can be beaten. The rear locker really helps, but there are situations where you need to be able to force it to stay on. The systems are reactionary and there are obstacles where that can't work. and then you get to the obstacles where you really need more than traction control on the front axle as well. I've run all of these side by side with trucks that are open diff, trucks with TC and open diffs, rear lockers with and without TC and ones with lockers front and rear. Nothing is better than the last.
Or maybe they are comfortable successfully navigating 99.9% of trails, paths, and obstacles out there in pursuit of other things, like getting to a completely empty spot to enjoy a once-in-a-lifetime solar eclipse with just your family in silence, or finding the perfect spot to camp along a roadless section of desert river canyon beneath a spectacular sunset and Milky Way filled sky. Maybe it's driving old mining paths to discover old history or to access a challenging Alpine ascent of a remote peak.

There are vehicles for tackling those additional 0.1% of obstacles that are otherwise impossible. In Rock climbing, those are called "boulder problems." Pure technical skills and power get you through them. Land Rover does not make those vehicles for that audience to buy off the lot. Nobody does. No, not even Jeep - you must spend $10,000+ to convert an otherwise stock Jeep to be a technical rock crawler. If you want to convert something to be a technical rock crawler, go buy a Jeep, or even an old Defender, if you can afford one in the US worth investing that kind of money in.

This is an Overlanding forum. Overlanding is not technical rock crawling and boulder problems. It's equivalent and akin to long-range trekking - and that's what kind of vehicle Land Rover makes and markets. The Discovery 5 has driven from South Africa to the Karakoram, including through the roadless areas of Asia Minor, Iran, and Pakistan. It has crossed the Congo on humanitarian missions. It's more about finding the most pleasing route as judged by other criteria - scenery, destinations, activities (such as bouldering and mountain biking or perhaps humanitarian causes) along the way.

If you want to argue on the merits of rock crawling vehicles, go find a rock crawling forum. In the mean time, feel free to rage-post about how the Defender suxxxxx eggplant emojis as a farm implement and how it has technology and electrical space alien voodoo that can never be repaired and that sort of thing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
...........If you want to argue on the merits of rock crawling vehicles, go find a rock crawling forum. In the mean time, feel free to rage-post about how the Defender suxxxxx eggplant emojis as a farm implement and how it has technology and electrical space alien voodoo that can never be repaired and that sort of thing.
The observations on the various traction systems was not about rock crawling. It was on broken down granite, shale that you find on a Colorado trail. Just plan around it if you can.
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
I sure have. It's an off-road park, not a road of any type. I certainly agree that there are challenging sections there, as well as other places in Moab. But actual roads, places that lead somewhere? I haven't found anything that needs that level of capability.
That wasn't my point but I guess it's the subject in the thread here. The Naches trail "leads somewhere" so that is the only one around here I can think of with some true degree of ruggedness. Actually now that I'm remembering places, there are some out by Winthrop that are of course just alternate routes but they do get pretty rough.
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
So I only now read a few of the posts and find it funny that my main issue with the new Defender is mostly functional use of space and it's lack of size. I was excited about the D5 until I saw it's energy efficient but space deficient EGG shape and idiotic lift gate removing many uses of a long roof vehicle, not to mention how the interior seats became less modular and the windows less tall.

The new Defender is too damn small for my preferences and uses but I have not measured one to see exactly where it's worst limitations exist.

I need a 29r mtb to roll in upright without front tire and have plenty of room above to have a netted storage area. LR3/4 does this easily.
Sleeping on 16" or so raised level with ample 75" back of center console to tailgate door.
Long roof for minimum 90" rack (basically a Disco 2 standard length rack which is what I have on the LR3)
Easily modular seats in the rear to choose which stay or are removed and not a giant hassle.
 

Blaise

Well-known member
^ I'm right there with ya James. I drove a D5 recently and it was too small. The Defender is similar in size to the LR3:

Vehicle LR3 - "Fake Defender"
Length 195 - 187 (197 with spare tire)
Width 79 - 79
Height 73 - 77.5

So you lose half a foot in length. But it stays square, unlike the D5. Could be good.
 

EricTyrrell

Adventurer
EricTyrrell:

My 'comfy little' modern rover can go anywhere in North America that I can find. Like I said, I'm still looking for these place which require 37"s and solid axles. Short of going to a dedicated off road park and trying obstacles, I can't find them. And I've been looking (pic below was taken in an ORV area... Rubicon owners were blown away that I was in there)!

After 3 threads, I still don't understand the hate. If you don't want a comfortable 4x4, why not just buy a wrangler? Why do you have to hate on the Defender? And why do we keep holding it to this insane standard which is way way way above anything that anyone would actually use one for?
I have little interest in tires over 34" or rock crawling and I've said nothing about the subject.

You have to understand what the Defender was, in the context of its time. Let's go back to 1990, roughly 7 years into its life. It was the most hard working, utilitarian, capable, simple, and configurable vehicle on the market, a pinnacle vehicle of its niche. Some might say the Land Cruiser should take that title, but hey, this is the Land Rover section. It was designed for anyone who needed to get dirty or avoid getting dirty, or transport someone or something anywhere. Explorers, tow-services, fire, science, oil and gas, military, builders, farmers, ranchers, off-roaders, etc. The chassis was durable and the body could be configured to do almost any job, either from the factory or from third-party conversion builders. The diesels were simple and economical. The V8s put a smile on off-roaders faces. It was remarkably easy to repair or modify. The load space, essentially square and barren, was efficient and got filthy without remorse. Pickup or station wagon, in the back you tossed materials and dirty tools. When it got dented or scratched you didn't worry how much the insurance deductible was. It didn't matter. Tomorrow, it was was going to take more abuse anyways. It was just comfortable enough to serve double duty around town. After a job was done, the same vehicle could get you to the post office or market in sufficient comfort (for the time). It was more durable and handled more cargo than a Jeep. It was more capable and rode better than Land Cruisers and other traditional work trucks.

It had its flaws, certainly. In the normal 5-10 year cadence of vehicle development, with proper investment, they would have been fixed along the way, but that didn't happen. It languished with only minimal updates.

The new Defender should be in 2020, what the intent of original Defender was in 1990. The engineering should be as simple as possible while meeting the basic needs of people today. That doesn't mean carburetors or mechanical diesels. It means proven, familiar, and relatively simple technology of today. The fewer critical systems, the better, to reduce what can go wrong, as long as it does the job. Capability should rival the competition, just as it did then. Its design should be as recognizable as possible given regulations. Safety should be improved, but not one avoidable compromise should be made for it. Safety was never the goal, and if its yours, you're shopping the wrong vehicle. However, any new iteration would still be far safer than the original. For a new trick, it should get you there (somewhere) and back reliably, something the original intended, but too often had difficulty executing. It should still lend itself to hard work and appeal to those who do so. A person shopping Land Cruisers, G-wagen Professionals, Wranglers, RAM 1500s, Toyota Tacomas, Ford Rangers/F150s, etc should look forward to seeing what Land Rover has to offer, even if its strengths are a bit different. That's not the new Defender, and it's not even the new Land Rover. Gone are the lodge style dealerships and off-road proving courses, and with it, any focus on anything related to hard work, adventure, or just getting dirty. Instead, now all the techs have to paint their toolboxes black, or buy new ones, just to align with their bullshit status symbol driven corporate image. Any allusion to these values are now just lifestyle nods to people who are wealthy enough not to need or intend to get dirty, but who would like to appear as if they could.
 
Last edited:

EricTyrrell

Adventurer
Did LR abandon the market, or did the market abandon LR?
Both. At present, I've never seen a market where more trucks, suvs, and recreational 4x4s are being sold. Values for classic 4x4s are sky high, and owners are being paid ridiculous daily fees for media shoots. LR went luxury and forgot how to build a truck, just at the wrong time.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
The observations on the various traction systems was not about rock crawling. It was on broken down granite, shale that you find on a Colorado trail. Just plan around it if you can.
But I don't need to. I can and have driven it without issue in my D5.

And my response to Red90 specifically addressed his position that because you have a vehicle that *can* go off-road, you should drive it on routes that are ever increasing in difficulty until you get stuck, because that's fun.

That may be fun for rock crawlers who have fully caged rigs with $10,000+ in rock crawling mods, but that's a tiny, tiny minority of both trails and people who drive them. My point is Land Rovers, particularly the D5 in my experience and so far on paper the New Defender, can drive 99.9% of the routes on the planet, with nothing more than a good set of aftermarket (or for the Defender, factory option) AT tires. The rest of the technical trails out there are and forever will be the domain of specially modified rock crawling rigs.
 
Last edited:
Top