New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

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EricTyrrell

Expo God
I've said it before the exact same BS was discussed ad nauseam on the Cruiser' forums and by cruiser heads regarding the 80's, 100's and 200's, it's juvenile at best and simply ignorant at worst. Going from the 80 with it's traditional straight 6, solid axles, full float rear end, front and rear lockers to the 100 with it's V8, IFS and SF rear axle is not that far removed from what we are seeing here. Besides your personal beliefs, what makes you think Defender won't follow the same path?
The Defender is not the 50, 60, 80, 100, 200 (Wagons) counterpart. That's the Discovery line. The correct LC branch to follow is the Heavy Duty line from 40 to 70 series. A few years ago Toyota added various safety features to achieve a 5-star ANCAP rating. That's where we're at. 70-series, G-wagen, Wrangler, Jimny, all imperfect, but solid examples of product evolution.

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I'd pick a new Defender 100 times out of 100 vs the Grenadier for an expedition. Ineos can put whatever engineering and thought into that product but without local dealer support and years of reliability and performance metrics, I don't see how it's viable outside of a small niche group which are what, farmers and ranchers...who won't know WTF to do with a BMW engine if it fails to start.
Grenadier has the vast BMW dealership network at its disposal for engine service. The mechanical, from what we've seen so far, are so simple and familiar that any shop or shade tree mechanic can work on one. However, if your only assistance with an engine issue is some roadside repair shack, you're SOL with any new platform.
 
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DorB

Adventurer
Toyota would disagree:


"To celebrate the Land Cruiser's status as a pivotal part of Toyota’s lineup for more than 60 years, the Heritage Edition was conceived. The latest special-edition Land Cruiser looks back to its past and draws on its . . . Heritage. . . and becomes the 2020 Land Cruiser Heritage Edition. The Toyota Land Cruiser arrived on our shores in 1958 and became an instant icon, a role it has nurtured ever since. Over the years, Toyota has tested dozens of new markets and used the Land Cruiser and its core values of quality, dependability, and reliability to establish the brand in each new market. Once each new market falls for the legendary Land Cruiser, Toyota slowly starts to roll out the rest of its lineup"

Sounds like you are in the camp of it's gotta look the same? Would you be happy if they kept the old Defender body almost identical as it was and designed it for road use on a chassis, say, like a Subaru? You'd be able to clearly see the lineage then....
You missed the term “heritage”..

Small word, huge difference in meaning.


And no (again..)
Design is by far not what differ this new LR SUV but the fanctunality.
 
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nickw

Adventurer
The Defender is not the 50, 60, 80, 100, 200 (Wagons) counterpart. That's the Discovery line. The correct LC branch to follow is the Heavy Duty line from 40 to 70 series. A few years ago Toyota added various safety features to achieve a 5-star ANCAP rating. That's where we're at. 70-series, G-wagen, Wrangler, Jimny, all imperfect, but solid examples of product evolution.

Grenadier has the vast BMW dealership network at its disposal for engine service. The mechanical, from what we've seen so far, are so simple and familiar that any shop or shade tree mechanic can work on one. However, if your only assistance with an engine issue is some roadside repair shack, you're SOL with any new platform.
Your missing the point, unless your point is when the 60 series branched off it was not a 'real' Landcruiser? It's mechanically the same and very sim to the 70. The 60 was certainly cross shopped by Defender owners. I'm at a loss as what to tell ya.....

So what does the Granadier get ya if it's not a simple engine or electronics, solid axles and a retro body style? It's not dealer support, robust parts supply chain or a long tenure of reliability testing. It's 100% a "cool" rig, but don't think for a minute you won't see those lining the street of Coachella or blown up on IG....
 
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EricTyrrell

Expo God
Your missing the point, unless your point is when the 60 series branched off it was not a 'real' Landcruiser? It's mechanically the same and very sim to the 70. The 60 was certainly cross shopped by Defender owners. I'm at a loss as what to tell ya.....

So what does the Granadier get ya if it's not a simple engine or electronics, solid axles and a retro body style? It's not dealer support, robust parts supply chain or a long tenure of reliability testing. It's 100% a "cool" rig, but don't think for a minute you won't see those lining the street of Coachella or blown up on IG....
Yes, you could subjectively argue the Wagon line, which increasingly diverged from the original HD models, should not wear the LC name. Maybe it should have been called the LC American, akin to how Toyota appended "Prado" to the LD line. I'm indifferent on that debate. I'm not sure what your point is.

It's too early to say what Grenadier gets us.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member

soflorovers

Well-known member
Looking at the configurations available now and before, the jobs done now and before, the markets now and before.. The answer is a clear and obvious no.

View attachment 584157View attachment 584158View attachment 584159
Again, agree to disagree. It just depends on your definition of the word more. Sure, the old D110 could be turned into an ambulance, tow truck, troop carrier, etc... Here's the thing though: It did all those things far worse than say a dedicated ambulance, a dually-based tow truck, MRAP, etc. As time went on, people started to realize that maybe the Defender wasn't the solution to everyone's needs. I will admit, the New Defender can't do any of those things. That said, you'd be silly to want a New Defender for military service, or to replace MB Sprinter ambulances with Defenders.

In mathematical/visual terms, the new Defender may not appeal to the far ends of the bell curve like the old Defender, but it will have significantly more area under the curve. The new Defender will never be sold as a tow truck, ambulance, etc..., but it will be sold as a 5 door SUV with greater levels of practicality for more people for things that are relevant to 99.99% of the population; in that regard, sure...the new Defender doesn't appeal to that .01% like the old one did. Hope that makes sense.
 

EricTyrrell

Expo God
Oh Noes! A company did a marketing event where people smiled and there were lights and music!

Obviously they no longer make vehicles relevant to the couple hundred people in the US who bought the last version of the thing they sold here.
Sooo looking forward to the new Defender pajama slumber party! It's like, going to be so fun!
 

EricTyrrell

Expo God

Imagine being the only person you know who hates the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or the only one who doesn’t like chips. That’s kind of what it feels like to stick your hand up as a motor journalist right now and squeak: “I don’t like the new Land Rover Defender.”

I so wanted to love it. After the slating the 2011 DC100 concept received at the hands of the press and public, I expected something… more faithful to the original. I had high hopes. What we’ve ended up with is so uncannily similar to that concept pariah that I feel like Mugatu in Zoolander.

There are less subjective problems with it, too. There’s the question as to whether the new car really knows what it is. It’s unmistakeably lifestyley, with hidden door hinges and the option of gargantuan alloy wheels with rubber-band tyres. Two wheelbases is a novelty in itself these days, although it’s probably easier just to think of them as a two-door and a four-door.
 

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EricTyrrell

Expo God
Again, agree to disagree. It just depends on your definition of the word more. Sure, the old D110 could be turned into an ambulance, tow truck, troop carrier, etc... Here's the thing though: It did all those things far worse than say a dedicated ambulance, a dually-based tow truck, MRAP, etc. As time went on, people started to realize that maybe the Defender wasn't the solution to everyone's needs. I will admit, the New Defender can't do any of those things. That said, you'd be silly to want a New Defender for military service, or to replace MB Sprinter ambulances with Defenders.

In mathematical/visual terms, the new Defender may not appeal to the far ends of the bell curve like the old Defender, but it will have significantly more area under the curve. The new Defender will never be sold as a tow truck, ambulance, etc..., but it will be sold as a 5 door SUV with greater levels of practicality for more people for things that are relevant to 99.99% of the population; in that regard, sure...the new Defender doesn't appeal to that .01% like the old one did. Hope that makes sense.
Yes, the original was a highly adaptable tool, but involved compromise in every task. Special-purpose tools will always perform better for specific tasks. However its strength was in adapting to off-road uses. For example, it made a terrible ambulance, but a great off-road ambulance. Terrible troop carrier, great off-road troop carrier. Terrible <insert task>, great off-road <insert task>.

It's true, the new one will appeal, at least in daily livability, to a wider market, but do we need yet another car that appeals to the masses? There are plenty that do not, yet they exist. In its previous life, Defender became an off-road and utilitarian halo vehicle. It carried the torch of capability and industrious heritage for the brand. However, unless one was of a special breed, you'd no sooner daily drive one than you would a stripped down track car, and that's fine. You might say LR can't afford it to be a limited sales halo vehicle, but the demand for off-road utilitarian vehicles is so incredibly large, that such a case need not be limiting. It's disappointing that there's no longer any modern vehicle that offers that same combination, from the factory, of excellent off-road capability, relative simplicity, and is purpose built to get work done. Our choices are to either adapt pickup trucks to off-road duty, or adapt Wranglers to work duty. Neither works as well as a platform dedicated to both. Bronco and Grenadier may be as close as we get in the near term, but it's disappointing the modern solution won't wear a green oval.
 

catmann

Member
You missed the term “heritage”..

Small word, huge difference in meaning.


And no (again..)
Design is by far not what differ this new LR SUV but the fanctunality.
Slightly off-topic, but speaking of the Heritage Land Cruiser - Toyota has a stange way of making special editions - all their TRD PRO models have blacked out "Heritage" TOYOTA grills rather than the modern Toyota symbol, but the actual "Heritage Edition" of their flagship model wears modern silver logos front and rear??? Very odd.
 
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