Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
dropping them? in fact they are/were thinking to get into the sedan and wagon market. Maybe they are not wrong... if you know what I mean.
New Defender News
- Thread starter blackangie
- Start date
JLR's primary issue is Jaguar but Land Rover has also not been profitable. Maybe select models but as a whole it hasn't. As Land Rover moved away from its roots, offering slick new SUV's, they actually overlapped with Jaguar. Jaguar was slow to offer SUV's. I'm thinking there is opportunity to consolidate models between Jaguar and Land Rover. The Evoque would be a good candidate to move to Jaguar. The Discovery is not hitting sales goals, poorly accepted. It needs a redesign and is critical to Land Rover as it is a core product. Velar? Hmmm....not sure how it fits into "Land Rover". Leave Range Rover and Range Rover Sport untouched, they are doing well although I think RR is moving too far upmarket. The new Defender will also miss sales goals as the competition is much greater with the intro of Bronco and Grenadier. I sometimes wonder if the current new Defender should be the next Discovery/LR5 and JLR should acquire the rights or work out a manufacturing partnership with Grenadier.
As for powertrains, the EV investment will return less than they think it will. Maybe Jaguar can offer EV's and be profitable in that sector but it will be difficult. EV's make zero sense for Land Rover until there is widespread adoption of hydrogen for fuel cell equip. Right now Land Rover needs a good global diesel offering.
As for powertrains, the EV investment will return less than they think it will. Maybe Jaguar can offer EV's and be profitable in that sector but it will be difficult. EV's make zero sense for Land Rover until there is widespread adoption of hydrogen for fuel cell equip. Right now Land Rover needs a good global diesel offering.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Not sure if this has been shared; Apologies if it’s a repost.
www.gearpatrol.com
The language Mr. McGovern speaks isn’t exactly “off road” - he reminds me of an architect talking about buildings; a lot of focus on high-brow concepts as opposed to practical, utilitarian features. He talks about the Defender the same way John Ivy used to talk about iPhones and MacBooks - of course, unlike Land Rover, Apple has a reputation for making stuff “that just works”! And, I think the parallel is apt especially for those who are really worried about the complexity of this new defender (as am I). My iPhone is incredibly complex, but total failures are incredibly rare, and often any minor failures are corrected by turning it off and back on again, or patched with an OTA software update within a few days. I’m hopeful — and reasonably optimistic - that the new Defender will be like an iPhone.
What I’m concerned about is this: Imagine if every time you tried to send an e-mail with an attachment that was too large, your iPhone defaulted into “safe mode”, limiting features, until you get to an Apple Store? I don’t think this is the reality, but I think it’s a reasonable comparison that puts to words why so many folks are worried about the complexity of this incredibly modern machine.
[Edit: To be clear I don’t really care about Mr. McGovern’s opinion as I’ll make my mind up on the vehicle on my own, and right now I REALLY want one — top of my list in fact, by a mile. I just found the comparison interesting for discussion]
Anyway enough rambling about iPhones and Land Rovers — As for the article, I found some stuff (like his comment about bull bars being aesthetic — maybe for some, but for many they are critical bits of kit) to be eyebrow raising, where some of his other comments make sense. Hope y’all enjoy it.
Land Rover’s Spiritual Leader Makes No Apologies for the Design of the New Defender
Retro really isn’t his thing.
www.gearpatrol.com
The language Mr. McGovern speaks isn’t exactly “off road” - he reminds me of an architect talking about buildings; a lot of focus on high-brow concepts as opposed to practical, utilitarian features. He talks about the Defender the same way John Ivy used to talk about iPhones and MacBooks - of course, unlike Land Rover, Apple has a reputation for making stuff “that just works”! And, I think the parallel is apt especially for those who are really worried about the complexity of this new defender (as am I). My iPhone is incredibly complex, but total failures are incredibly rare, and often any minor failures are corrected by turning it off and back on again, or patched with an OTA software update within a few days. I’m hopeful — and reasonably optimistic - that the new Defender will be like an iPhone.
What I’m concerned about is this: Imagine if every time you tried to send an e-mail with an attachment that was too large, your iPhone defaulted into “safe mode”, limiting features, until you get to an Apple Store? I don’t think this is the reality, but I think it’s a reasonable comparison that puts to words why so many folks are worried about the complexity of this incredibly modern machine.
[Edit: To be clear I don’t really care about Mr. McGovern’s opinion as I’ll make my mind up on the vehicle on my own, and right now I REALLY want one — top of my list in fact, by a mile. I just found the comparison interesting for discussion]
Anyway enough rambling about iPhones and Land Rovers — As for the article, I found some stuff (like his comment about bull bars being aesthetic — maybe for some, but for many they are critical bits of kit) to be eyebrow raising, where some of his other comments make sense. Hope y’all enjoy it.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
JLR is doing well in the US - their largest market.
JAGUAR LAND ROVER SETS NEW US FULL YEAR SALES RECORD WITH 125,787 SALES IN 2019, A THREE PERCENT INCREASE FROM 2018 RECORD HIGH | JLR Media Newsroom
Jaguar Land Rover today reported December 2019 U.S. sales
media.jaguarlandrover.com
The RRS is JLR's best selling SUV in the US, and the Evoque is a close #2 perennially. Both saved Land Rover's bacon as a brand. However, I could see the Disco Sport going away in favor of a mid-spec D90 or Jaguar F-Pace sales, and the E-Pace going away in favor of the Evoque. The Range Rover is a halo model and doesn't sell in large numbers but it's a brand anchor - but it does sell far better than comparable offerings from Bentley and Rolls. Same with the Disco - we cross-shopped the RRS and Disco, and in 2017 the Disco was the far better value. I'm actually seeing more and more of them on the road lately. However, the Defender will cannibalize sales from the Disco.
Graph below: dark Blue is RRS, Yellow is Evoque, Red is FFRR, green is the Jaguar F-Pace, purple is Disco Sport, light blue is Velar, and pink is Discovery, and light green is the little E-Pace.
DieselRanger
Well-known member
So they enabled SOTA updates on the D5, which includes 80+ software modules including the infotainment. I've received 3 or 4 updates since they did that last year - one just the other day to bring the infotainment to version 20B - when I bought it they started on 18A or 18B, I forget which. It's proceeded flawlessly each time as my car connects to my home wifi when I get home, and when I start the car it notifies me that it's available, and will download and install in the background as I drive. It won't complete installation until the vehicle is fully shut down and goes into sleep mode which I think takes 10 minutes. I can also download and install map updates myself - but I use Android Auto rather than the native app so this doesn't really matter. The best part about this is I don't have to go to the dealer for any of that crap. The dealer told me that Pivi Pro (the Defender infotainment) is now based on an LG smartphone architecture with a Linux kernel. Felt quite responsive and looked great when I played with it at the dealer.Not sure if this has been shared; Apologies if it’s a repost.
Land Rover’s Spiritual Leader Makes No Apologies for the Design of the New Defender
Retro really isn’t his thing.
The language Mr. McGovern speaks isn’t exactly “off road” - he reminds me of an architect talking about buildings; a lot of focus on high-brow concepts as opposed to practical, utilitarian features. He talks about the Defender the same way John Ivy used to talk about iPhones and MacBooks - of course, unlike Land Rover, Apple has a reputation for making stuff “that just works”! And, I think the parallel is apt especially for those who are really worried about the complexity of this new defender (as am I). My iPhone is incredibly complex, but total failures are incredibly rare, and often any minor failures are corrected by turning it off and back on again, or patched with an OTA software update within a few days. I’m hopeful — and reasonably optimistic - that the new Defender will be like an iPhone.
What I’m concerned about is this: Imagine if every time you tried to send an e-mail with an attachment that was too large, your iPhone defaulted into “safe mode”, limiting features, until you get to an Apple Store? I don’t think this is the reality, but I think it’s a reasonable comparison that puts to words why so many folks are worried about the complexity of this incredibly modern machine.
[Edit: To be clear I don’t really care about Mr. McGovern’s opinion as I’ll make my mind up on the vehicle on my own, and right now I REALLY want one — top of my list in fact, by a mile. I just found the comparison interesting for discussion]
Anyway enough rambling about iPhones and Land Rovers — As for the article, I found some stuff (like his comment about bull bars being aesthetic — maybe for some, but for many they are critical bits of kit) to be eyebrow raising, where some of his other comments make sense. Hope y’all enjoy it.
I don't think I've had any updates to non-infotainment software, but I assume that's for remote troubleshooting and maybe fixes via the "breakdown" function through the built-in cellular connection.
Gerry McGovern is a pure designer - he even shows his clear differentiation from "the engineers" and gives a token nod to his "mate" Nick Rodgers (in another version of this interview)...his job is how Land Rover vehicles *look*. "...you still gotta get the engineers to engineer your design..." and there's another longer version of this interview where he says something like "you push engineering as hard as you can but at some point the engineers run out of spit and you have to go with it because ultimately the vehicle has to function" or something like that. Function is secondary to him as a designer, but he does acknowledge the tension and the necessity. I like his comments about retrospective design, but at the same time at a certain age buyers start to prefer "modern nostalgia" - especially in America. Less a comment on the car, more a comment on society and a longing for times past. I do disagree with him where he says effectively, "if you don't like it you're wrong," especially because later he says that if nobody buys it he gets the bullet.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
That is fantastic — the seamlessness of your experience is exactly what I had hoped for, and is the direct opposite of the fear I described above. I’m also glad they are using LG smartphone kit - very well made, in my opinion. We struggled through the years where car companies struggled to replicate what Apple/Google/Samsung/LG already did extremely well for long enough (a time that makes sense, given a vehicle platform is a 7-10 year product cycle where as tech is often a 1 year product cycle). Car Play has made most of the features on my GM’s (both of ‘em) infotainment useless for me, but I think the Defender’s system might actually win me over for everything except navigation.
Nothing to add here other than I totally agree with your observations. Based on what I’m seeing, the new Defender definitely hits the design vs function balance fairly well. I differentiate between design and aesthetics though — his comments about the difference between layman ‘tastes’ and expert designer perspectives were interesting. A designer has to consider pedestrian safety, brand use guides, marketability, etc. Which is a lot more complex and involved, with many more variables, than a a potential customer who says “It doesn’t look like the old one enough so it’s bad” — which seems to be the main criticism I’ve seen so far, alongside the ‘too complex to be any good’ argument (which I’m not at all sold on as actually being an issue, because as your experience shows, so much depends on how well it works).
Land Rover could drop a couple of models and be better for it.
The Velar, no idea why you need something that’s slightly bigger than an Evoque, but isn’t as big as a Sport.
Disco 5 hasn’t sold as well as hoped, it’s too different to the lineage of D1-4 and is way overpriced for what it is. Roughly £12,000 more than the equivalent D4, you aren’t getting 12 grand extra car for it.
Disco Sport, should have been called Freelander 3. Actually very popular over here
Evoque is everywhere, extremely popular and probably the best selling model in the line up.
RRS is also popular, but for it’s size, it’s not very big inside.
My scuba diving mate had a D4 and now has a 2015 Sport. In the D4 you could get 3 people’s full kit and 6, 15Litre tanks in the boot. You can’t in the Sport.
New Defender seems to be popular, seen a few around now.
The 3.0 6 cylinder diesels with hybrid technology will be my pick in a few years.
The Velar, no idea why you need something that’s slightly bigger than an Evoque, but isn’t as big as a Sport.
Disco 5 hasn’t sold as well as hoped, it’s too different to the lineage of D1-4 and is way overpriced for what it is. Roughly £12,000 more than the equivalent D4, you aren’t getting 12 grand extra car for it.
Disco Sport, should have been called Freelander 3. Actually very popular over here
Evoque is everywhere, extremely popular and probably the best selling model in the line up.
RRS is also popular, but for it’s size, it’s not very big inside.
My scuba diving mate had a D4 and now has a 2015 Sport. In the D4 you could get 3 people’s full kit and 6, 15Litre tanks in the boot. You can’t in the Sport.
New Defender seems to be popular, seen a few around now.
The 3.0 6 cylinder diesels with hybrid technology will be my pick in a few years.
catmann
Active member
The new Defender did not have to necessarily look like the old one to "be good", but it needed to "look the part" of its namesake, and I just don't think it does. I am sure it is an excellent vehicle, as is the D5, but I just do not care for the styling too much and at the price points available now (base models/commercial variants and 130 wheelbases to come later) I could not justify buying something I did not really like that much aesthetically (I do like the interior). Then again, I did not like the LR3 compared to the DII and now an LR3/4 seems great, so it may grow on me.
I am not sure JLR even needs Jaguar anymore - they may do better to just use the Land Rover name and have a couple cars (Road Rover), a couple small, mid, and large SUV's and call it a day. My understanding is that ALL future vehicles will be moving to the MLA platform over the next few years, so the process of eliminating too many platforms is well underway. The 2022 RR is already running the track on the new platform and so I think that will help in their cost cutting down the road - they just need to be able to survive the next few years to start reaping the savings and have sustained profits.
I am not sure JLR even needs Jaguar anymore - they may do better to just use the Land Rover name and have a couple cars (Road Rover), a couple small, mid, and large SUV's and call it a day. My understanding is that ALL future vehicles will be moving to the MLA platform over the next few years, so the process of eliminating too many platforms is well underway. The 2022 RR is already running the track on the new platform and so I think that will help in their cost cutting down the road - they just need to be able to survive the next few years to start reaping the savings and have sustained profits.
Pivi Pro is Blackberry QNX RTOS hypervisor running on Qualcom Snapdragon 820Am ASIC
BRAINS AND BRAWN: RUGGED NEW LAND ROVER DEFENDER SHOWCASES WORLD-FIRST DUAL eSIM CONNECTIVITY AT CES 2020
"........Land Rover will showcase its advanced Pivi Pro technology at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas, with the New Defender 110 and 90 taking pride of place on the Qualcomm (LVCC, North Hall, 5606) and BlackBerry (LVCC, North Hall 7515) stands respectively."
Blackberry Case Study: How Jaguar Land Rover Drives Automotive Collaboration Through Partnerships
QNX hypervisor is why Land Rover can claim they are running dozens of "ECU's". Each ECU is a virtual machine running on a quad-core Snapdragon
BRAINS AND BRAWN: RUGGED NEW LAND ROVER DEFENDER SHOWCASES WORLD-FIRST DUAL eSIM CONNECTIVITY AT CES 2020
"........Land Rover will showcase its advanced Pivi Pro technology at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas, with the New Defender 110 and 90 taking pride of place on the Qualcomm (LVCC, North Hall, 5606) and BlackBerry (LVCC, North Hall 7515) stands respectively."
Blackberry Case Study: How Jaguar Land Rover Drives Automotive Collaboration Through Partnerships
QNX hypervisor is why Land Rover can claim they are running dozens of "ECU's". Each ECU is a virtual machine running on a quad-core Snapdragon
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Totally fair! I don’t know if you were responding directly to me or not, but I hope I didn’t suggest that you (or anyone else) is “wrong” to not like the Defender. To clarify what I mean, my comment was that one of the few criticisms I have seen on the new Defender is the looks, but that comment wasn’t meant to question the validity of that criticism - it’s a perfectly valid perspective to take on any new vehicle. If a person doesn’t like the way a vehicle looks, it’s a matter of taste and preference, which I fully respect and can’t really be ‘wrong’. Thankfully, there are a ton of options right now even in the new market, so a person can really get the 4x4/Overland rig that resonates with them and meets their needs the best.
With regards to your comment about it growing on you — I totally feel that. I admit that I was a bit hesitant on the looks of the rig from photos. I’ve always been a function over form guy, but I was underwhelmed with the videos and photos I was seeing online after it was first revealed to the point where I stopped being interested in the new Defender entirely quite a few months ago. News trickled out about IFS, air suspension, etc. and like many on these boards I thought “Thats too bad, it doesn’t sound like they have kept the Defender spirit”.
More recently, I watched an excellent Top Gear segment in Namibia — the film does a great job of showing what the vehicle can do, and the host seemed to me to have a clear connection with the rig at the end of it which is important to me — it has character, at least to him. That piqued my interest up again so I started reading through the specs, and these threads, watching more videos online — each one generally having a similar take-away as the Top Gear film, Which is that the new Defender is a cracking good 4x4 with character and modernity — and I thought “Gee, this isn’t too bad in terms of capability and utility” — but still, I was a bit hesitant on the looks.
I went to see it in person last week (just a socially distant walk around, they just got them at my local dealer) and honestly it was a bit like my first date with my now wife. “Oh...This is pretty cool.” I thought In the first few minutes. That evolved to “Yeah I like this” after an hour crawling around it snapping photos and checking it out [EDIT: I’m entirely talking about the Defender here. My first date with my wife contained no crawling around for photos!]. Fast forward two weeks, it’s been on my mind constantly...yep, I’m falling in love. If it follows the pattern, I will be proposing as soon as I get my stuff together — which will give me enough time to really see how reliable they are on a medium time-scale. So yeah — it grew on me in a big way. My wife also loves it, and we’re actively looking for reasons not to get one while we save up for one. If it is at least as reliable as our Jeep — which honestly is a low bar, as ours had quite a few hiccups, there’ll be one in the driveway in a year or two.
P.S. I figure I’ll toss up the Top Gear vid I referenced:
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ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I had only seen the shorter clip of the Defender tackling that hill; seeing all the other rigs try it and struggle really drives home how good this thing is. Even the other Rovers struggled a bit (probably at least in part due to tires by the looks of it), but the Defender’s traction control walks right up without much fuss. I should also add that I’m assuming the hill is the same throughout — the first chunk with the Amarok, the G-Class, and a few others is from an angle at the crest of the hill, whereas the Defender and a couple of others looks to be the same hill, but shot from the bottom of the hill. If I’m wrong and they are two different hills, obviously that changes things.
Corgi_express
Well-known member
More 18” wheel details from Lucky 8 - they got some Tuffant wheels to fit without a spacer, with a caliper swap.
Caliper swap? That doesn't sound so good for new, under warranty vehicles. I liked the Compomotives solution of their "We did it in the rear!" video last week a lot better (same brakes, no grinding, no cutting, no swapping anything - plus a lot of Compos already out there on LR4s and RRSs), which might have used spacers instead, but I guess they may have jumped the gun a little on that one if a caliper swap is now the only way to get an 18" rim to fit a Defender with P400 engine?