New Defender News

[Cseabaugh]

@Cseabaugh would love to hear if you have the insight on the 4 banger PETROL engine D110? I didn't see a reference in the article about use of one, just the I-6 and Euro 4 Banger Diesel.

There weren't any four-cylinder gas engines on the launch. I'd expect to get seat time in it sometime this summer (depending on how the whole pandemic shakes out). The Euro high output diesel was under-powered. Really didn't like it. Part of the issue was transmission tuning (too eager too upshift, too hesitant to downshift), which Land Rover says will be fixed for production versions, but there's no making up for the diesel's relatively narrow powerband. It was a really disapoinitng engine. The electrified I-6 obviously had no such issues.

My gut instinct is that the gas-powered turbo I-4 that we'll get here in the U.S. will likely be fine for overlanding. It's got siginficantly more power than the diesel and a pretty wide torque spread. The turbo ought to help at altitude, and I have to imagine the gearing and tuning of the standard eight-speed auto will also be changed to make the most of the engine.

 

[TexasTJ]

Cool I have really been thinking about getting a 4cyl 90 but I still want to here someone’s drive experience.

 

[Victory_Overland]

There weren't any four-cylinder gas engines on the launch. I'd expect to get seat time in it sometime this summer (depending on how the whole pandemic shakes out). The Euro high output diesel was under-powered. Really didn't like it. Part of the issue was transmission tuning (too eager too upshift, too hesitant to downshift), which Land Rover says will be fixed for production versions, but there's no making up for the diesel's relatively narrow powerband. It was a really disapoinitng engine. The electrified I-6 obviously had no such issues.

My gut instinct is that the gas-powered turbo I-4 that we'll get here in the U.S. will likely be fine for overlanding. It's got siginficantly more power than the diesel and a pretty wide torque spread. The turbo ought to help at altitude, and I have to imagine the gearing and tuning of the standard eight-speed auto will also be changed to make the most of the engine.

Great insight; thanks a million. Would love to see more information as you get it on the 4cyl-PETROL as per the price-point it would be my only viable option for a D110 purchase.

 

[JackW]

And that's why I have a 4 cylinder gas powered 110 on order. I drove a 2020 Velar with the four cylinder gas engine and it seemed pretty good on a short test ride. I was really hoping for a six cylinder diesel version but according to my source at JLRNA it's not gonna happen here.
I think the diesel six is supposed to be introduced next year but the whole anti-diesel movement in Europe may kill it. That's a shame because it would be a great engine - especially if it didn't require the soot filter system that has caused the oil dilution issues.
My truck was supposed to arrive around early July, probably will be delayed several months now. Its going to look like this in Fuji White but without the ladder and with the 18" alloy wheels with the Goodyear tires.

 

[nickw]

My point was for towing and at altitude. Altitude as in 8,000 to 10,000 ft, on average. It's all about torque, not hp.

Torque is largely meaningless.....it can predict the nature of the power, but HP, or more importantly area under the HP curve, is what truly matters when it comes to performance.

 

[JackW]

I'd have to say that the 450 ft-lbs of torque that my TDV6 Discovery 5 certainly isn't meaningless. It towed a 26' car hauler with a Porsche 356 Carrera in it quite nicely.
And it towed this 17 foot long, 2700 lb travel trailer back up from Orlando, Florida at 65-70 mph easily while getting 23 mpg.

 

[nickw]

I'd have to say that the 450 ft-lbs of torque that my TDV6 Discovery 5 certainly isn't meaningless. It towed a 26' car hauler with a Porsche 356 Carrera in it quite nicely.

Lots of low end 'power', high HP at a relatively low RPM with proper gear ratios

 

[mpinco]

I'd have to say that the 450 ft-lbs of torque that my TDV6 Discovery 5 certainly isn't meaningless. It towed a 26' car hauler with a Porsche 356 Carrera in it quite nicely.

Yup. Towing is all about high torque coming in early and flat across the power band such that engine stress is low while fuel economy is good.

 

[mpinco]

Torque is largely meaningless.....it can predict the nature of the power, but HP, or more importantly area under the HP curve, is what truly matters when it comes to performance.

Depends on what you are doing. Quick off the line acceleration that manufacturers use to sell vehicles? Well HP. Max towing capability of 250 and 350 class trucks? Well Torque.

For towing, what's more important, horsepower or torque?
".......Let's look at the differences between two truck engines. A Dodge Ram truck with a 6.7-liter Cummins Turbo Diesel engine has 350 horsepower and 650 pounds-feet of torque. The same truck with a 5.7-liter Hemi gasoline V8 engine, on the other hand, has 383 horsepower and 400 pounds-feet of torque. See the difference? While the gasoline engine has a little more power, the diesel's torque completely blows it away [source: Dodge].

While the two trucks have very similar towing capacities --15,650 pounds (7098.7 kg) for the gasoline engine and 16,350 pounds (7416.2 kg) for the diesel -- all that low-end power means the diesel engine will have an easier time towing things. Keep in mind that the diesel Dodge engine gets that much torque at only 1,500 rpm, which is just above idle. With a diesel engine, you won't have to rev up to start towing because the power already exists.

Because you're using more energy-laden diesel fuel, diesel engines get better mileage than gasoline ones, so you'll also be able to tow longer without stopping..........."

Prediction. Try towing over extended periods of time, at high stress levels, with a 2.0L engine and I wouldn't be surprised to see it trashed in less than 100K miles. Now run at altitude and your not going to be making very many friends on those 2 lane roads.

 

[nickw]

Depends on what you are doing. Quick off the line acceleration that manufacturers use to sell vehicles? Well HP. Max towing capability of 250 and 350 class trucks? Well Torque.

For towing, what's more important, horsepower or torque?
".......Let's look at the differences between two truck engines. A Dodge Ram truck with a 6.7-liter Cummins Turbo Diesel engine has 350 horsepower and 650 pounds-feet of torque. The same truck with a 5.7-liter Hemi gasoline V8 engine, on the other hand, has 383 horsepower and 400 pounds-feet of torque. See the difference? While the gasoline engine has a little more power, the diesel's torque completely blows it away [source: Dodge].

While the two trucks have very similar towing capacities --15,650 pounds (7098.7 kg) for the gasoline engine and 16,350 pounds (7416.2 kg) for the diesel -- all that low-end power means the diesel engine will have an easier time towing things. Keep in mind that the diesel Dodge engine gets that much torque at only 1,500 rpm, which is just above idle. With a diesel engine, you won't have to rev up to start towing because the power already exists.

Because you're using more energy-laden diesel fuel, diesel engines get better mileage than gasoline ones, so you'll also be able to tow longer without stopping..........."

Prediction. Try towing over extended periods of time, at high stress levels, with a 2.0L engine and I wouldn't be surprised to see it trashed in less than 100K miles. Now run at altitude and your not going to be making very many friends on those 2 lane roads.

It's still a misnomer to say Torque is best for pulling, it truly is HP that results in performance of any kind, full stop....because of gearing. The article you quoted says as such, "...all the low end POWER".

Now a high torque engine *tends* to have more low end HP which is truly what people find beneficial for towing for a couple reason, fuel economy and engine longevity. High RPM, high HP engines with relatively little torque can certainly be used in heavy duty application....in an M1 Abrams tank, which has less torque than F150 3.5L Ecoboost engine....

 

[mpinco]

Consumers don't want tanks. They want good towing and good fuel efficiency from a high energy density fuel. My son's 84 RRC retro'd with a 4 cyl Isuzu diesel pulls like a train and gets 35 mpg. My other son's Cummins 5.9L diesel is a workhorse that beats the gas equivalents.

There are paper specs and then there is reality.

 

[mpinco]

Hoping the relaxation of fuel efficiency requirements help LR move forward with a 6cyl diesel at a $1500 adder vs the MHEV at roughly $8K or more?

 

[nickw]

Consumers don't want tanks. They want good towing and good fuel efficiency from a high energy density fuel. My son's 84 RRC retro'd with a 4 cyl Isuzu diesel pulls like a train and gets 35 mpg. My other son's Cummins 5.9L diesel is a workhorse that beats the gas equivalents.

There are paper specs and then there is reality.

It illustrates the point, you can see why torque figures are meaningless to throw around without understanding the curves, especially HP curve.

The modern turbo gas engines pull much better than you think and have plenty of low end power, even for a heavy 4x4.

 

[Paddler Ed]

The challenge is that in Europe (where the Land Rover comes from) a 5+ litre diesel engine is legitimately a truck engine, not a car engine, as evidenced by Isuzu who put a 5.2 litre engine in their 7500kg GVM truck range, whilst in their 5500kg range it still comes with a 3.0 (admittedly a 4JJ1 which is a decent engine):

N55.150(N) Chassis Cab - Isuzu Truck

Discover the reliable Isuzu N55-150N truck with exceptional performance. Explore features on the official Isuzu Truck UK page.

www.isuzutruck.co.uk

N75.190 Chassis Cab - Isuzu Truck

Improve your business with the Isuzu N75.190 Chassis Cab. Explore its reliability and efficiency for optimal performance in diverse industries

www.isuzutruck.co.uk

So, if we stop comparing what is fitted into something that has a GVM of over 3500kg, then we might be moving forwards. At at that point, most things are now running 3.0 diesels (Nissan Patrol, Toyota 150 series Prados) or a similar displacement (Mercedes G-Wagen was the G350d in Pro spec IIRC) with the exception of the 200 and 70 series Land Cruisers which still get a 4.5 litre diesel in Australia or a 4.2 diesel for RoW applications.

 

[mpinco]

It illustrates the point, you can see why torque figures are meaningless to throw around without understanding the curves, especially HP curve.

The modern turbo gas engines pull much better than you think and have plenty of low end power, even for a heavy 4x4.

I might be interested in a 3l diesel. I'm definitely not interested in a 2l gas.

EV's are marketed on instant acceleration, torque from very low speed.