New Defender News

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Doesn't excuse the issues (I've noted numerous ones that I had in first few months) for their car and none of these happen in our 2019 4Runner, but after having just driven 15 hours in our Defender I'd much rather have spent wheeltime in the LR than something else!

That last comment matters a lot actually -- I'll take a vehicle that puts a smile on my face every time, but comes with a bit of baggage, over a vehicle that bores me. Life is too short to drive boring cars! The fact that you're still smiling behind the wheel despite the issues you have had is a strong endorsement in my books.

Assuming these are ghost codes, I wonder if it can be remedied with a software update recalibrating the computer to sensor data. Still, a new vehicle should function properly.

Good point -- I'm assuming ghost codes because they go away, but there could be an underlying fault.

 

[T-Willy]

I have previously reported on my initial shakeout drive in the Defender the same coolant and suspension issues. This was within first 300 miles of delivery back in June this year. No leak whatsoever in the coolant, I believe that LR is using a finicky sensor for the tank as it was slightly topped off and has been fine in the ~7,000 miles since which has included a lot of off-road driving at more severe angles than TFL. There might be something to the above comment about 'adaptive' learning is interesting.

Doesn't excuse the issues (I've noted numerous ones that I had in first few months) for their car and none of these happen in our 2019 4Runner, but after having just driven 15 hours in our Defender I'd much rather have spent wheeltime in the LR than something else!

Not to put you on the spot, but it'd be interesting to hear cliff notes comparing your driving experience with Defender versus 4Runner.

 

[Carson G]

For those who haven't watched the video, the new TFL Defender seems to be throwing some codes that go away after the tried and true "turn it off and back on again". There have been two unique faults, both of which have come back more than once. The first is an AIr Suspension fault which appeared in their initial video on the Blue Defender; that one comes back in this video. The second fault is telling them they have no coolant even though a visual inspection shows them at the max coolant line.

It keeps working, but an $80k vehicle throwing that many ghost codes in the first 500 miles is not ideal. I've been trying to think of theories to explain this. Could it be that there is some sort of adaptive technology at play here where the computer is learning what the normal operating specifications for a given vehicle is? Maybe, but I've only really ever heard of an adaptive system for throttle sensors, not suspension and coolant systems.

They speculated that the low coolant warning might have been due to the angles of the trail, but they also pointed out that neither other vehicles in the test had that code issue despite the same terrain, and the terrain wasn't even that steep to begin with.

The coolant warning is due to the coolant level. It should be at the max line when cold if it’s anything like my D3 and D4. The suspension fault is troubling. However I have noticed it didn’t drop to the bump stops like the old trucks.

 

[merrion13]

Not to put you on the spot, but it'd be interesting to hear cliff notes comparing your driving experience with Defender versus 4Runner.

Here would be my quick differences. Both ride on AT tires so comparable there (Toyo AT3s on the LR and General Grabber ATX on the 4R).

• Sightlines: Defender crushes the 4R in this regard, in all directions (even with the spare mount on the Defender). LR has always been great about tall greenhouses and it's been a nitpick of mine with Toyota on the 4R (and Tacoma) that they enclose the driver more than they should for vehicles geared toward off-roading. Also gives the Defender more visibility of blind spots and other traffic when driving on the highway
• Comfort: The 4R has good seats, but limited headroom (I'm not that tall, 6') and significantly more highway noise due to cheaper interior materials and sound deadening. The difference in noise is very substantial. I haven't measured the db but in the 4R I can't talk on the phone at highway speeds without substantial background noise. Just knocked out 1,000 miles on the highway from Denver to Arizona via New Mexico and was routinely at 85mph in the Defender; completely easy and quiet. This is where LR has always had an advantage over the Wrangler and 4R in particular; you can crush highway miles in supreme comfort and then go off road with confidence and capability.
• Power: I live in Denver, and routinely drive into the mountains and offroad to 11,000 feet. The 4R is OK, but the P400 makes passing and other highway maneuvers effortless. If I didn't live at elevation I would have likely ordered the P300.
• Technology: First let me say I am neither a technophile or anti-tech. I believe many modern cars fall too guilty of tech trends without thinking through usability and practicality. That being said, I also believe there is no excuse to not upgrade non-trendy items like vehicle lighting. This is where Toyota is really bad, and that includes the venerable Land Cruiser which I cross-shopped with the Defender. Toyota does a lot of things right, but one area where not enough of their fanbase is real about is their utter lack of quality technology including headlights and audio, they both absolutely suck in the 4R. But I also think the PiviPro system in the Defender is overly reliant on sub-menus and wish they would have added a slightly more button-focused arrangement especially for Terrain and Off Road features
• Reliability: My Defender was in the shop off & on for 5 weeks since June (!). Much of this was for first-production run ailments (A Pillar, B Pillar noises, minor electrical faults etc) but still incredibly frustrating and concerning long-term. The 4Runner just had a fuel pump recall which theoretically is a bigger potential issue than those experienced thus far in the Defender, but in the 4R you just turn the key and go and literally never think about having the car strand you or throw a random code.
• Interior Space: Defender wins in a few ways. More vertical storage room, and less intrusion from the rear-wheel wells. As noted in prior posts, we often sleep in the back of our vehicles when in the backcountry and the Defender not only is better and more comfortable but also has little features like better storage in the cargo area which enhance this experience. This is also where the Land Cruiser IMO doesn't do as well, the tumble-style seats require full removal to take advantage of the cargo area which is a PITA and limits the utility of that vehicle.
• Off Road - We have a 4R TRD Off-Road Premium. This has a strong level of offroadability and does very well in Colorado. But we haven't lifted it and this is where the Defender's suspension wins. I've scraped the front skid plate on the 4R and on the same trail in the Defender even at stock height that didn't happen. I've also done some trails in Moab where the 4R probably could have gotten done, but would have required more spotting and slower progress to clear.

Guess that was longer than the cliff notes version!!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

The coolant warning is due to the coolant level. It should be at the max line when cold if it’s anything like my D3 and D4. The suspension fault is troubling. However I have noticed it didn’t drop to the bump stops like the old trucks.

That's an interesting observation - you'd think JLR would have double-checked every fluid level on this thing before turning it over to TFL, but based on @merrion13's example, it appears to be a consistent sensitivity. If a top-up of coolant is all it needs, I actually see that code as a good thing -- I want a code to be displayed a LONG time before any damage occurs. If it triggers at even a millilitre less than what it's supposed to be, that's far preferable to one triggering only when the coolant is approaching the "low" point -- that's where an awkward angle or altitude can conceivably actually cause a problem for the cooling system, whereas if it's only a touch below where it should be and throws a code, one can ideally take steps to rectify that.

I hadn't noticed the point about it not sitting on the bump stops but that is a great observation and speaks further to the "how it breaks" argument. I know air suspension is more prone to issues and harder to fix trailside, but if the bags just sort of seal and stay inflated at whatever level they are at, it means you can likely get back to a place of repair (as opposed to if they deflated and you were stuck on the bump stops).

Here would be my quick differences. Both ride on AT tires so comparable there (Toyo AT3s on the LR and General Grabber ATX on the 4R). (Deleted for brevity)

Excellent real-world comparison of two fantastic off-roaders. Thanks for sharing your experience. When you cross-shopped with the Land Cruiser what were your opinions on the ride quality of the Cruiser? I was surprised to hear one of the TFL guys rank it better than the Defender.

 

[merrion13]

In terms of ride quality for the LC vs the Defender, while the LC is very commendable as a long-distance tourer, it also feels more weighted and boat-like than the Defender. There is a nimbleness / taut feeling to the Defender that the Cruiser lacks.

 

[T-Willy]

Here would be my quick differences. Both ride on AT tires so comparable there (Toyo AT3s on the LR and General Grabber ATX on the 4R).

• Sightlines: Defender crushes the 4R in this regard, in all directions (even with the spare mount on the Defender). LR has always been great about tall greenhouses and it's been a nitpick of mine with Toyota on the 4R (and Tacoma) that they enclose the driver more than they should for vehicles geared toward off-roading. Also gives the Defender more visibility of blind spots and other traffic when driving on the highway
• Comfort: The 4R has good seats, but limited headroom (I'm not that tall, 6') and significantly more highway noise due to cheaper interior materials and sound deadening. The difference in noise is very substantial. I haven't measured the db but in the 4R I can't talk on the phone at highway speeds without substantial background noise. Just knocked out 1,000 miles on the highway from Denver to Arizona via New Mexico and was routinely at 85mph in the Defender; completely easy and quiet. This is where LR has always had an advantage over the Wrangler and 4R in particular; you can crush highway miles in supreme comfort and then go off road with confidence and capability.
• Power: I live in Denver, and routinely drive into the mountains and offroad to 11,000 feet. The 4R is OK, but the P400 makes passing and other highway maneuvers effortless. If I didn't live at elevation I would have likely ordered the P300.
• Technology: First let me say I am neither a technophile or anti-tech. I believe many modern cars fall too guilty of tech trends without thinking through usability and practicality. That being said, I also believe there is no excuse to not upgrade non-trendy items like vehicle lighting. This is where Toyota is really bad, and that includes the venerable Land Cruiser which I cross-shopped with the Defender. Toyota does a lot of things right, but one area where not enough of their fanbase is real about is their utter lack of quality technology including headlights and audio, they both absolutely suck in the 4R. But I also think the PiviPro system in the Defender is overly reliant on sub-menus and wish they would have added a slightly more button-focused arrangement especially for Terrain and Off Road features
• Reliability: My Defender was in the shop off & on for 5 weeks since June (!). Much of this was for first-production run ailments (A Pillar, B Pillar noises, minor electrical faults etc) but still incredibly frustrating and concerning long-term. The 4Runner just had a fuel pump recall which theoretically is a bigger potential issue than those experienced thus far in the Defender, but in the 4R you just turn the key and go and literally never think about having the car strand you or throw a random code.
• Interior Space: Defender wins in a few ways. More vertical storage room, and less intrusion from the rear-wheel wells. As noted in prior posts, we often sleep in the back of our vehicles when in the backcountry and the Defender not only is better and more comfortable but also has little features like better storage in the cargo area which enhance this experience. This is also where the Land Cruiser IMO doesn't do as well, the tumble-style seats require full removal to take advantage of the cargo area which is a PITA and limits the utility of that vehicle.
• Off Road - We have a 4R TRD Off-Road Premium. This has a strong level of offroadability and does very well in Colorado. But we haven't lifted it and this is where the Defender's suspension wins. I've scraped the front skid plate on the 4R and on the same trail in the Defender even at stock height that didn't happen. I've also done some trails in Moab where the 4R probably could have gotten done, but would have required more spotting and slower progress to clear.

Guess that was longer than the cliff notes version!!

Excellent breakdown, very informative. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

 

[Carson G]

In terms of ride quality for the LC vs the Defender, while the LC is very commendable as a long-distance tourer, it also feels more weighted and boat-like than the Defender. There is a nimbleness / taut feeling to the Defender that the Cruiser lacks.

I imagine at full payload the Defender would feel superior in every category.

 

[mpinco]

In terms of ride quality for the LC vs the Defender, while the LC is very commendable as a long-distance tourer, it also feels more weighted and boat-like than the Defender. There is a nimbleness / taut feeling to the Defender that the Cruiser lacks.

Full ladder frame of the LC/LR3/LR4 vs aluminum unibody "D7 Premium Lightweight platform". Long term I would expect the LC/LR3/LR4 to outlast the Defender unibody, especially for use cases of higher payloads.

 

[Colin Hughes]

"The 4Runner just had a fuel pump recall which theoretically is a bigger potential issue than those experienced thus far in the Defender, but in the 4R you just turn the key and go and literally never think about having the car strand you or throw a random code."
While I love Land Rover and they were daily drivers for almost 20 years, the last year of LR3 ownership was close to $8K in repairs, some expected, others not (instrument cluster, coolant tank for 3rd time, etc). Almost two years into 4Runner ownership, three oil changes and a brake service (only needed because the truck sat for 6 weeks in the winter with road salt due to Covid lockdowns - my fault). I don't worry about lights on the dash, dropping to bumpstops, just turn the key and go. Does the motor pull as strong as the LR v8, nope, is the sound system as good, not quite, is the ride as smooth, no but pretty close. However, there is now extra money in my bank account to allow for more travel. It gets me to the trails comfortably to camp, hike, bike, canoe, etc and at this point in my life, this makes me happy

 

[DieselRanger]

It's painful to watch. They can't get one trouble-free outing.

To be fair, nothing was broken as far as they could tell. Suspension fault cleared, low coolant cleared. I've had low coolant warnings in cold weather in many cars...usually because they're *just* at or just above the "cold min" level - a few ounces to bring them up to "cold max" usually resolves them, or they resolve as the engine warms up.

My guess is a software update will fix the suspension fault, but I still maintain on these vehicles they're pushing the limits of the CANBUS to handle the amount of data moving around the vehicle - collisions that can't be resolved do happen (a known/documented limitation), and at some point they have to time out when they can't get status within some reasonable time period. Maybe having the subsystem monitors wait another x milliseconds would do the trick, who knows.

 

[DieselRanger]

The suspension fault is troubling. However I have noticed it didn’t drop to the bump stops like the old trucks.

Recall these are two stage airbags, and they're crosslinked to the corners.

On my D5, they don't relax to the bump stops in access height - I can push a button in the rear cargo area and lower the rear suspension another ~2 inches. That appears to get to the bump stops - the tops of my tires are then inside the tops of the wheelwells.

Would think LR would have looked at this, but could also be that maybe there was some condensation/freezing that temporarily confused the position sensors, and cycling the suspension and some bumpy driving offroad knocked it off, because it appears it disappeared after they used it as a camera car for the LC.

 

[T-Willy]

To be fair, nothing was broken as far as they could tell. Suspension fault cleared, low coolant cleared. I've had low coolant warnings in cold weather in many cars...usually because they're *just* at or just above the "cold min" level - a few ounces to bring them up to "cold max" usually resolves them, or they resolve as the engine warms up.

My guess is a software update will fix the suspension fault, but I still maintain on these vehicles they're pushing the limits of the CANBUS to handle the amount of data moving around the vehicle - collisions that can't be resolved do happen (a known/documented limitation), and at some point they have to time out when they can't get status within some reasonable time period. Maybe having the subsystem monitors wait another x milliseconds would do the trick, who knows.

It would be accurate to say that we do not know whether there were malfunctions in the sensor-alert systems or the suspension and cooling systems that they monitor. I suspect it was the former throwing false codes, but, one way or the other, there were malfunctions.

While malfunctions in the sensor-alert system are less worrisome, frequent false codes defeat the purpose of a having a system that reliably signals the presence (and absence) of actual problems. For obvious reasons, this is consequential for remote touring.

If they are false codes, hopefully that can be remedied with a software update.

 

[Blaise]

Here would be my quick differences. Both ride on AT tires so comparable there (Toyo AT3s on the LR and General Grabber ATX on the 4R).

Guess that was longer than the cliff notes version!!

This is dead on with my experience, without being able to do it back-to-back. Sure, having some growing pains is annoying, but things like great seats and great lights go a long way when adventuring!

Can't wait to upgrade.

 

[Christian P.]