Minimum EV Range Requirement for Touring Western U.S.

[calicamper]

Nice truck and camper! What year is the F150 pictured? I ask because my 2008 LR3 that I tow with does about 11-14mpg, loaded or unloaded (I only tow 2000lbs). Your F-150 averages 11mpg if we divide your 400 mile range by the size of your tank. So having a larger fuel tank really makes all the difference. This wasn’t an option on the LR3, nor were some of the technologies available then that were built into your Ford 3.5EcoBoost, which makes it a much more fuel efficient engine than my V8 pig. My point is, the technology of ICE evolved, and in a relatively small window of time. I fully expect EV batteries to do the same. Lots of money on the line here, that motivates people and inspires creativity and drives innovation. We’ll get your numbers out of an EV truck inside of a decade I believe. The network of charging stations is going to explode with growth. Subsidies and tax breaks will be offered where they aren’t already. One of our great assets as a species is our problem solving (our problem making too, but that’s a different thread ?) and we’ll get all this sorted and then look back and barely remember it was ever not that way.

Mechanical Parasitic drag definitely has been reduced in modern vehicles. I recall even back in 2010 Subaru was able to reduce parasitic drag in their tiny 2.0L by a considerable amount in the ground up redesign of that motor. A big factor has been metal treatment for both high heat resistance and reduced friction. Which did many things, lowered parts weights, heat issues etc.

Add the big investment in modern transmissions CVT and standard Auto’s that alone transformed old engines into competitive options GM trucks are a great example of that.

The CA ban on combustion “only” vehicles is using the largest Auto Market to push the market into more efficient vehicles.
What the “news” people don’t report is that this ban is on “combustion ONLY” vehicles. If they were lead with “CA pushes for hybrid and EV only vehicles” their news wouldn’t make news because were already doing that..

The only difference between today and no combustion only. My recent Expedition would have been a plug-in hybrid. Same for my neighbors Suburban. Same for my sailing buddies new AT4 Sierra. No big deal.
Instead of stealing my wife’s plugin hybrid to run errands on EV mode, I’d just grab my truck for the same trip and EV use.
When we were in COVID lockdown I went to the gas station 4 times in 14months. But drove nearly daily with the plug-in which only went to the gas station once in 14months.

Towing and heavy work the hybrid and modern electric technology will make the work trucks more than just a gear wagon they’ll be a site tool, powering equipment. Even with heavy work use they should easily see 15-20% gain in fuel efficiency.

 

[rruff]

So first thing long distance towing rigs will be hybrid not straight EV.

In that application I don't think there'd be much advantage vs ICE alone, so not worth the trouble and expense. CA should have an exemption for that.

Pure EVs can be simple relative to ICEs, and much more efficient on fuel. Hybrids that can run full-electric add another big jump in complexity. You get better economy in town but not on longer trips.

 

[calicamper]

In that application I don't think there'd be much advantage vs ICE alone, so not worth the trouble and expense. CA should have an exemption for that.

Pure EVs can be simple relative to ICEs, and much more efficient on fuel. Hybrids that can run full-electric add another big jump in complexity. You get better economy in town but not on longer trips.

You can’t have it all but very few people travel ling distance via car today. All my contractor buddies every one of them agrees they would see a large reduction in fuel use if their F250 was hybrid. The time they sit in traffic and idling at job sites is considerable work trucks didn’t get hour meters to be cool and fancy.

Will my neighbor running cattle see any gains? No he drives a Prius when he’s not dragging around his stock trailers. He also burns 1/8th the fuel my contractor buddy uses.

 

[calicamper]

Are long distance Pickup truck buyers a market factor? Nope… They’ll get whatever vehicle fits closest to their needs which will be determined by the urban contractor work truck guys.

 

[calicamper]

Reliability? Hell even 750,000 mile Hybrid Taxi vehicles are running original hybrid gear on 2nd or third ICE engines. Thats already proven to be a non issue. If anything its shown the hybrid can easily have a longer run than a ICE vehicle simply given its efficient and runs a lower per mile cost over the same 1million mile life. Both get new ICE engines every 300-350k regardless. Only one of them is still capable of returning low fuel costs.

 

[JaSAn]

How many gallons of water has the oil, gas and coal industries polluted?
I thought EVs were part of the clean 'green' solution. Everywhere I look the pollution is being moved to poor parts of the world.

I am under no illusion that EV's are completely clean but I find it so interesting that folks support companies like shell and exxon who have committed horrendous crimes against people and the planet while leaving taxpayers to clean up the mess.
See 'Lithium Mining in Salar de Atacama, Chile'
See Colbalt mining in Southern Africa.

Mining is an environmental concern for sure but EV's are still lower impact than ICE's even if the power comes from coal.
Sources? All I see is an attempt to ignore and minimize the ecological footprint of EV manufacture and use.

Our electrical grid needs a massive revamping and investment regardless of how many EV's are on the road, American infrastructure is a joke.
I agree. But I see little happening. My contention is that we should be putting our focus and resources into increasing and improving the electric infrastructure before we mandate a huge increase in consumption.

 

[ABBB]

Apples and oranges, my friend. Anyone saying battery tech is totally clean is delusional, but we’re talking about MAJOR MAJOR differences in the creation pollutants between fossil fuel extraction and burning over 150 years and the effects of mining in the developing world. BUT, I’m glad you bring it up because it needs to be considered and addressed. We didn’t do that historically with fossil fuels and look where we are now. So yes, let’s work to keep the mining and production of battery and all other vehicle tech as clean as possible.

 

[calicamper]

Apples and oranges, my friend. Anyone saying battery tech is totally clean is delusional, but we’re talking about MAJOR MAJOR differences in the creation pollutants between fossil fuel extraction and burning over 150 years and the effects of mining in the developing world. BUT, I’m glad you bring it up because it needs to be considered and addressed. We didn’t do that historically with fossil fuels and look where we are now. So yes, let’s work to keep the mining and production of battery and all other vehicle tech as clean as possible.

No doubt
First step is to stop the Chinese resources grab. China has zero ethics regarding mining especially in other countries.
The battery technology is changing fast the biggest driver is material cost and availability then capacity.
There are already modern mining systems being tested that actually do multiple positive things not just extraction. Which is the exact opposite of oil extraction.

 

[Deleted member 144299]

rebuttal

I typed out a response to each of your rebuttals but it seems pointless and I've already helped derail this thread too much. All I'll say is:

I get what you are saying about EV's not being the 100% green alternative that advertisers are pushing but thats what marketing does, it lies. Bottom line is we are moving to renewables like wind and solar to supplement the grid and phase out fossil fuels eventually. EV's are an overall better choice for the environment with some caveats but like it or not we are heading toward eventually all new cars being EV's, mandates or not. Don't worry though I am sure you can keep your gasser for the rest of your days, it's the next generation that will laugh at the crazy old technology of the ICE car.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

I typed out a response to each of your rebuttals but it seems pointless and I've already helped derail this thread too much. All I'll say is:

I get what you are saying about EV's not being the 100% green alternative that advertisers are pushing but thats what marketing does, it lies. Bottom line is we are moving to renewables like wind and solar to supplement the grid and phase out fossil fuels eventually. EV's are an overall better choice for the environment with some caveats but like it or not we are heading toward eventually all new cars being EV's, mandates or not. Don't worry though I am sure you can keep your gasser for the rest of your days, it's the next generation that will laugh at the crazy old technology of the ICE car.

Ah those crazy old gas cars...
- 2032

 

[ABBB]

41% reduction for EV and 28% for hybrid after 200,000 miles. That’s a big difference overall, especially when we picture larger and larger portions of vehicles on the road as EVs and hybrids.


“According to research from the Fuel Institute (opens as PDF), you may need to drive your electric vehicle for a couple of years before you can claim you're doing less harm to the planet than someone with a gas-powered car. In the best-case scenario, when the electric vehicle is being driven in a state where most of the energy comes from low-carbon sources, it will take 19,000 miles before the EV becomes more climate-friendly than an internal combustion engine.


However, once the carbon deficit the EV built up during its manufacturing is overcome, it becomes far more efficient than its fossil fuel-powered equivalent. Again, in a best-case scenario, a battery-powered electric vehicle will have produced 41% fewer emissions after 200,000 miles when compared to a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. Hybrids also start with a deficit but do better than traditional automobiles in the long run. A hybrid will have to be driven far more than 19,000 miles before its owner can accurately claim it has had less of an impact on the environment than its traditional equivalent. After 200,000 miles, which is a reasonable lifespan for most cars, it will have been responsible for 28% less CO2 than a similarly specced gas-powered car.”



Read More: https://www.slashgear.com/1010820/h...-is-greener-than-a-gas-car/?utm_campaign=clip

 

[calicamper]

41% reduction for EV and 28% for hybrid after 200,000 miles. That’s a big difference overall, especially when we picture larger and larger portions of vehicles on the road as EVs and hybrids.


“According to research from the Fuel Institute (opens as PDF), you may need to drive your electric vehicle for a couple of years before you can claim you're doing less harm to the planet than someone with a gas-powered car. In the best-case scenario, when the electric vehicle is being driven in a state where most of the energy comes from low-carbon sources, it will take 19,000 miles before the EV becomes more climate-friendly than an internal combustion engine.


However, once the carbon deficit the EV built up during its manufacturing is overcome, it becomes far more efficient than its fossil fuel-powered equivalent. Again, in a best-case scenario, a battery-powered electric vehicle will have produced 41% fewer emissions after 200,000 miles when compared to a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. Hybrids also start with a deficit but do better than traditional automobiles in the long run. A hybrid will have to be driven far more than 19,000 miles before its owner can accurately claim it has had less of an impact on the environment than its traditional equivalent. After 200,000 miles, which is a reasonable lifespan for most cars, it will have been responsible for 28% less CO2 than a similarly specced gas-powered car.”



Read More: https://www.slashgear.com/1010820/h...-is-greener-than-a-gas-car/?utm_campaign=clip

I suspect thats a highly variable figure based on battery technology being used and urban traffic vs rural etc.

In the end its a percentages game. If 98% of your profit is derived from urban vehicle sales and 99% of vehicle emissions is in urban traffic those percentages are quite a bit different.
My hybrid doesn’t dump emissions in stop and go urban traffic. It also gets charged at home which has a solar power system that covers about 99% of our needs. Carbon emissions on making that stuff sure. But no way of getting around it other than getting stuff that has the longest possible service life. Buy cheap junk that only goes 10yrs then your carbon foot print is far worse than the guy who spent 30% more and got 30yr equipment.

If anything we should be shutting down the garbage products that are just ending up in our oceans and land fills.

 

[rruff]

But no way of getting around it other than getting stuff that has the longest possible service life.

Or repurposing our infrastructure and building and using much more efficient vehicles... in urban areas. Technically it would be super easy, and benefits are extreme.

 

[billiebob]

Heres a good write up on EVs in the Outback of Australia.

"Easier than you think:" Sydney to Darwin in an electric car

Electric road trips across remote stretches of Australia are easy to do with the right know-how, tips and research.

thedriven.io

 

[billiebob]

I get what you are saying about EV's not being the 100% green alternative that advertisers are pushing but thats what marketing does, it lies.

I have solar on my Square Drop roof. It powers refrigeration, cooking, boiling water. It uses ZERO fuel. The fridge has been at 35F for 3 months. The inverter powers the induction cooktop, microwave and kettle. The system is totally free standing. No connection to the vehicle but I know if the vehicle battery dies I can boost off the Square Drop battery.....

The naysayers are all idiots. EVs will change the world for the better.

On the lithium mining thing.... have you seen the TarSands in Alberta??? And lithium might be gone soon replaced by something better. On where can I charge, well gasoline stations were few and far apart 100 years ago too. On the we will crash the grid.... for the past 30 years our obsession with everything IT, laptops, GPS, smartphone, home automation, home air conditioning has increased our electrical consumption 10 fold from the 1970s.

The naysayers are idiots. We will evolve and meet the challenge. Heck even oil and gas are investing in sustainable electric energy. They could care less if we drive gas or electric cars. Either way they will be making a profit.

But honestly, just like how easy it is to power an overland camper to cook and refrigerate food with electricity and solar, driving an electric overlander will also be a positive change and the world, corporations, are online to deliver those vehicles plus the charging infrastructure.

I could care less about the political hype nor the fake news on both sides. I love my experiences with electricity. LED lighting sure beats the heck out of coal gas. The electric clothes washer wins hands down over the gasoline powered Maytag washing machine.

If you are worried about the dirty end of energy.... do not buy a property that once had a gas station on it. I have yet to see gas station property where the underground tanks did not leak.