LR4 Battery Charging Profile... Measured with IID... really this bad?

Pophamrt1

New member
On my 2011 NA spec LR4 HSE with 60k miles I had a series of 3-4 dead battery issues over the last 6 months on a 2 year old Interstate H8 100AH. Also a series of "low battery" warnings to start it. But, a lot of around town short trips, which always preceded the failures. A volt meter at the terminals consistently found 12.2-12.3v after these short hops. The LR4 is still under a CPO warranty, and when checked the dealer techs repeatedly said the battery was fine, charging system working, etc., all good.

Well, I finally had it when stuck in the Sierras with a dead battery last week so put in a fresh Deka H8 AGM, reset the profile using the IID BT tool to H8 100ah HD, and reset the battery monitor. All good. But the next day, running the IID tool's graphing live values for the alternator voltage, charge, and battery capacity, I'm a bit confused.

The morning after the install the battery was at 12.60v before first start up (the evening before it was 12.67v after install). Once the car was started, over the first 15-20 minutes idling/starting/idling cycle, the car sucked the battery down to 12.3v then 12.2v. The only charging took place during the first 30 seconds or so after startup at 14.7v, then nothing. The IID graphed the battery at a constant 83-85% state of charge, all while running the car depleted it from 12.4 to 12.2v.

So after 20 minutes of mostly idle, with a few restarts, with no charging being shown including if revved, I took it for a drive around some hilly areas, 15-45mph. On flat stretches, the alternator wasn't kicking in... voltage stayed at 12.2v. Going down hills, if you touched the brakes, immediately 14.7v kicked in until off the brakes. Then back to 12.2v. cruising around under 45mph. I didn't try it on the highway, but wow, unless it's a "start-up" emission battery algorithm, this is pretty severe profile even if it gains a mpg or two.

At 12.2v state of charge the car should be throwing everything its got at bringing the battery up rapidly to a safe state of charge. Anybody else look at this issue? Is the system just this emission sensitive during the first 20 minutes of start-up routine and working properly? Or is something wrong?

I have the traxide kit and a second battery on the shelf but if on short hops, the profile doesn't do well with keeping the primary charged, it likely won't appreciate a second one to maintain.

Thanks
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
The alternator kicking in when you hit the brakes sounds like the poor man's regen braking that is becoming more common on modern vehicles.

The system deliberately keeps the battery less than full so that the alternator can put a load on the engine during braking. If the battery was full, the alternator would kick in, but wouldn't actually produce enough power to add any noticeable load to the engine.

For a rig with that system, I think you'd pretty much have to run a DC-DC charger for a second battery to boost the voltage to get a proper charge on the second battery.
 

perkj

Explorer
sounds to me like your alternator is bad. you should be over 13 while the car is running all the time.
 

Ray_G

Explorer
x2 on the alternator. When my truck is running my batteries (both the primary and the one charging via traxide) are running well over 13.
 

Pophamrt1

New member
Perkj, that was my thought too, it sounds faulty. But it's been checked twice by LR techs and given a clean bill. A baseline graph, or just the summary numbers for the charging routine/algorithm would be a good starting point if anyone has access or has noted them. The IID tech guys (Patrick) don't currently have the profile. The baseline would be a good starting point.

dwh, yes there's definitely an interesting braking system regen at work. And regarding DC-DC, if the system is really geared so much to emission, and so little to keeping a reasonable charge, I may mount a small solar on the roof rack. There's a lot here on EP about LR3/4 guys plugging the cars into battery chargers once a month. I'm wondering if I just ran into the issue head-on because my rig gets primarily short trips.

The final option, if this is indeed just a super-sensitive emissions algorithm that kills batteries... new algorithm. I mentioned it to IID and they made a comment about tricking the battery monitor system by showing a slightly lower charge. Personally, if it isn't some weird fault I'm experiencing, I'd live with 1mpg less for a FULLY charged battery.
 

Ray_G

Explorer
FWIW my commute while in Abu Dhabi was about 1.6km, each way-so the vast majority of the time I barely got the truck warm before she shut down. Never had a battery issue while there (and all the same commentary I made about both pri and aux batteries) pertains to life in that environment.

Solar may still be a good idea for you, but I think the dealer may not be looking hard enough. Might be worth posting this up over in the Discoweb LR3/4 tech section, it's a rough place compared to here but there are several LR techs that frequent that forum that work on these quite a bit.
r-
Ray
 

perkj

Explorer
Perkj, that was my thought too, it sounds faulty. But it's been checked twice by LR techs and given a clean bill.

You either need to (1) take it back to them showing the data you've collected and compare that to the data they collected or (2) go get a second option on the alternator behavior.
 

Pophamrt1

New member
It may be working okay now. Or even "normal." I'm seeing 13.0v from the alternator as a baseline when driving, and then 14.7v but only under braking and some coasting. It's possible that the system was a bit wonky for that first drive after the new battery, reset, etc., where it wasn't charging the battery in low speed driving.

I took it for a longer drive including highway speeds. All with the IID mapping voltage, amperage in/out, etc. What is really clear is that it's selectively choosing when to apply 0v, 13v, or 14.7v charges, based on all kinds of inputs... startup, idle, mph, downhill versus flat surface braking or coasting. Generally, it's staying at battery level with no charging after startup and sitting idling (even with low battery of 12.2-12.3v), only applying 13.0-13.1v after drive away and only after a certain speed of about 35 mph. And once 13.0v shows up, it's the baseline, including at idle (it didn't drop down again). 14.7v doesn't appear to be applied unless there's power to spare (downhill braking at slow speeds, or coasting downhill at highway speeds). These are rough and from memory so take them as they are, not exact. I'll see if the tech at LR can confirm these.

If its working correctly, it would mean that starting and sitting idling while camping for 5-10 minutes would be worthless--or even draw down the battery further. Possibly the 13.0v/14.7v kicks in at idle under very low voltages/when you get the "low battery--start engine" warning.

14.7v isn't applied much around town, particularly on flat streets. The coasting or braking regen algorithm seems to need hills and/or speeds greater than 35 mph. This would fit the battery draw down issues others have described where short trips/city driving are the norm. Since I do short trips most of the time, I likely only get 13.0v and my battery capacity seems to have dropped rapidly over the past 6 months. Without the sustained 14.7v to keep the capacity, the battery slowly loses its ability but "looks" reasonable voltage-wise.

I'll likely add a small solar to top up at the 14.7v range through the traxide/2nd battery when its installed. I'll have the system run through at LR later this week to confirm its working to spec. And thanks for all the input, including the 13.0v baseline perkj.
 

lwg

Member
Get This:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SQ4UETO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then clamp it over the primary lead from the alternator to the battery upon startup. It should show a decent amount of current. On my D2 it shows about 70 amps but I have a 220A High Output alternator (not sure what's on an LR4 but I'd think its decent sized). As others have mentioned the alternator should be maintaining at least 13 volts but closer to mid 13 volts AND be putting out some amount of amperage. If you don't see it, record it with your phone and take it to the dealer. If they continue to not repair it take it to another dealer, simple as that.

Sometimes dealers don't give it a chance to check out and only start it, check everything and say it's OK. Heck I had an alternator that couldn't put out more than 13.1 volts under any condition. It kept the battery "good enough" but it was never 100% charged. In fact it was slowly killing my Odyssey batteries over time, and they are expensive. Finally just replaced it even though it was "good" and now I'm getting 14.1 volts consistently and 70 amps at idle. Remember voltage is only half the story.
 

unseenone

Explorer
Sorry to jump in here. I wanted to share my miserable experience with those Interstate Batteries. I've gone through half a dozen myself. I finally broke down and switch to the Deka 9A49 AGM Intimidator, i have never been happier so far. It's worth having a look there as well as how your alternator is behaving. Battery Pictured here.

Good luck sorting the issues.

There are quite a few of us who also have the traxide system with good luck. Just search for Traxide here in the forum and you will find plenty of information.

I'm not sure about the LR4-- I have the LR3... What I see with charging voltages, which varies with temperature is typically 13.2 at idle to 13.5 on AGM in summer, winter is typically higher, at around 13.7 to 14.2 to 14.5.. This short graph will give you a visual of running voltages. Here's a year graph to give you a better idea. Bear in mind, I don't collect data when the vehicle is not running, or not on solar, or the aprs box is on the frits. I collected similar data on the Interstate, which is fairly dismal.
 
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LR Max

Local Oaf
Try something. Crank her up, then turn on ALL OF THE ELECTRICS. Effing lights. Hazard. Leave the doors open music. Seat heaters. Charge all of the cellphones and tablets. If you have a fridge freezer or anything else that can run off of 12v, plug er in and load it up. If you have aux lights...good. Turn up the screen brightness on everything.

Basically, see what happens when you load the system. If the alternator jumps up in voltage, then you are good to go.

It is alright for alternator to vary its voltage output. The alternator on my 1973 land rover does it (and yes, I have digital logging and graphs to show the variation). That is what an alternator regulator is supposed to do.

Just sounds like Interstate batteries suck. Deka is a very good brand. I've got one in my 109, run for 4 years. Will be replacing here before too long...with an identical Deka.

Either way, look at getting one of those jump packs. My buddy has one and it is pretty awesome. Had to use it a few times on his D90 when the electrical system was dying. Well worth its weight. I'm seriously considering getting one (good xmas present).

I have heard the newer rovers are hell on batteries. But like, killing them once every 2 years, not in such a short amount of time.

Just to benchmark you, I rented a 2015 suburban last year. On the highway in the day, the alternator was only putting out like, 12.7 or something like that. Nothing. But then when it started getting dark and I turned on the lights, the voltage went up.
 

Flocker

New member
Nothing technical to add, except to recommend occasional trickle charging. I'm on battery #2. The charging profile on my 2011 LR4 is one of my biggest headaches with the vehicle that i otherwise love. With the engine off, I cant use any audio for more than a few minutes while i am working on it without a low battery warning. There are so many instances where i'd love to be able to shut the car off and say, listen to a football game, or the sat radio for a few minutes while standing around the car, but i'm always worried about a dead battery.

I travel with a emergency jumper that has worked in every instance so far, and even took an extra new battery on a recent hunting trip where i knew we'd be using the vehicle as a mobile meeting point.

Next on my list is an onboard charger like this where i can just run an extension cord out to charge the battery. https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1-12S-CA-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B0000AXTUY
 

lwg

Member
Try something. Crank her up, then turn on ALL OF THE ELECTRICS. Effing lights. Hazard. Leave the doors open music. Seat heaters. Charge all of the cellphones and tablets. If you have a fridge freezer or anything else that can run off of 12v, plug er in and load it up. If you have aux lights...good. Turn up the screen brightness on everything.

Basically, see what happens when you load the system. If the alternator jumps up in voltage, then you are good to go.

It is alright for alternator to vary its voltage output. The alternator on my 1973 land rover does it (and yes, I have digital logging and graphs to show the variation). That is what an alternator regulator is supposed to do.

Just sounds like Interstate batteries suck. Deka is a very good brand. I've got one in my 109, run for 4 years. Will be replacing here before too long...with an identical Deka.

Either way, look at getting one of those jump packs. My buddy has one and it is pretty awesome. Had to use it a few times on his D90 when the electrical system was dying. Well worth its weight. I'm seriously considering getting one (good xmas present).

I have heard the newer rovers are hell on batteries. But like, killing them once every 2 years, not in such a short amount of time.

Just to benchmark you, I rented a 2015 suburban last year. On the highway in the day, the alternator was only putting out like, 12.7 or something like that. Nothing. But then when it started getting dark and I turned on the lights, the voltage went up.

Not to be that guy but the voltage shouldn't jump up, it should maintain under load or stay very close to the same. The amperage output should increase however. Technically if your only putting out 13.2v under no load your not likely to see it shoot up to 13.7 when under load. However a small drop in voltage is acceptable. That being said the 13.2v I referenced would be of concern in my vehicle.
 
Sounds like a bad brake switch to me. $20 at the auto parts store to test that theory

Buy two, keep one in the small parts box with your spare LR genuine bulbs.

Also, the brake switch is the same as a Ford Focus so ask your local ford dealer and I'm sure they have it and much cheaper. Says FOMOCO on it.

PN SW-6572
image.jpg
 

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