Long distance, mobile HF communications inside the US.

Mashurst

Adventurer
Long distance, mobile HF communications inside the US.
I know a lot of you guys are using VHF radios in your rigs. I’m in process of setting mine up right now but what I would really like eventually is to have an all band of some kind.
There was talk in another thread about running APRS on HF. Is there anyone here that is actually doing that?
What kind of rang can you predictably get on HF mobile? In other words what is the worst case propagation you could count on for emergencies?
I know there are a few seasoned HAMs out there… Randy?
What are the practical limits of this technology for adventure travel?
KJ6EUO
 

bc_fjc

Observer
I have both a VHF/UHF and an HF setup in the truck.
Yes, you can do APRS on HF with the right equipment. I am also setup to be able to send and receive emails and operate using most digital modes.

Range is all about the antenna, band of operation and conditions... I have a screwdriver antenna with both a 3' and an 8.5' whips that I use mobile. Using the 8.5' whip over the 3' whip more then doubles my range. I use 80M for more local communications friarly reliably, but have been able to check into a nightly net in Vancouver BC from Moab UT when conditions are just right. I also use 20M to regularly check in to a daily net in Reno NV. With HF you have to be aware there is no guaranteed range, some days the bands are short and others long so the use of relays stations is quite common if you are trying to reach a specific destination. I also carry a 135' multi-band dipole antenna that I can setup at camp to extend my range even further. The big thing to remember for emergency communications is to have a plan with multiple bands to overcome propagation challenges and someone has to be listening on the other side.

Hope this helps a little
 

SunTzuNephew

Explorer
For 'reliable' HF comms you need to use something like ALE - automatic link establishment, which is a computer controlled transceiver that continuously polls a number of different (pre-established) HF frequencies on different bands to find a solid link - then sends your digital message.

It's all the rage (although the military has been doing it for quite awhile). There's a group for it: http://hflink.com/
 

gary in ohio

Explorer
Long distance, mobile HF communications inside the US.
I know a lot of you guys are using VHF radios in your rigs. I’m in process of setting mine up right now but what I would really like eventually is to have an all band of some kind.
There was talk in another thread about running APRS on HF. Is there anyone here that is actually doing that?
What kind of rang can you predictably get on HF mobile? In other words what is the worst case propagation you could count on for emergencies?
I know there are a few seasoned HAMs out there… Randy?
What are the practical limits of this technology for adventure travel?
KJ6EUO

Is APRS the only function you plan on using HF for? I guess my question is what are you trying to do with VHF and HF radios? If positional info is the only thing you want to provide then spot is a better option.

As for HF mobile, Range will depend on band, time of day and where in the solar cycle we are. I run a Icom 706 mobile and talk around the world on a pretty regular basis. For within the states HF will work, but if you need 100% I have to talk from where I am to a specific "base" location every day at a specific time, you might find that may not work for you. While a band might be open across the US, propagation may favor 2 states away instead of the next state over. You can compensate by changing bands but a guarantee site to site is difficult.

Overall HF can provide communications but you need to spend time learning how to use the radio and how propagation affects where you want to talk.
 

gary in ohio

Explorer
For 'reliable' HF comms you need to use something like ALE - automatic link establishment, which is a computer controlled transceiver that continuously polls a number of different (pre-established) HF frequencies on different bands to find a solid link - then sends your digital message.

It's all the rage (although the military has been doing it for quite awhile). There's a group for it: http://hflink.com/

ALE doesn't provide reliable HF comms, It just picks the "channel" that has the best signal. For mobile use the ALE software would be difficult to use do to the lack of a multi band zero tune time antenna. THis is mainly due to the lack of support in PCALE for a ham environment and the need for "tune time" of ham radios. Works fine on customized military gear. You also need a PC running all the time to keep up with the active channels.

While it has its place in military and commercial markets it seems to have some limitations for the typical ham. its just as easy to flip through the handful of bands to find one that is active and make a call. While ALE does give you a data path the interface is clunky, its not made for much more than short text.

If there was a cost effective little ALE box I could plug into my radio that would run ALE then that might may it more practical for the ham on the go, but needing the computer to run PCALE really kills its usefullness now.
 

xtatik

Explorer
Gary summed it up well here. And, Gary correct me if I'm wrong but, subtly I think you're making some other valid points that are probably overdue here....practicality and operator proficiency. HF works well for those who use it often. It may not be practical for someone who won't take the time to understand its function and limitations. For those, you'd probably be better served with a Satphone and SPOT.
Personally, I'm not feelin' the APRS thing for my travel purposes. It doesn't add any real benefit to my current setup. For one, it simply won't reliably communicate out from areas I like to visit due to the FM signal limitations. Sure, I like cool looking, well-appointed rigs as much as the next guy.... but, at some point it get's a bit over the top with the gadgetry.....big hat, no cattle.....kinda' the antithesis of why I like to "get away".
For urban and even rural areas, repeater coverage is pretty decent here in the States. But, in the boondocks, this tech would be limited to an immediate network of vehicles....IF, all were so equipped. For me, that's not reason enough to implement it. I suppose it would be cool to track one of the party members while they've left camp and are traveling into town on a beer run or maybe the group splinters into two different runs for the day and you could keep tabs on em'. But, in either case I could just call them and get a rough fix on their whereabouts. And, like most here, I do run GPS and mapping software and if I truly need to know the specific location of a member of my party...they can simply tell me the coords, and with a few keystrokes I can pinpoint them. As for communicating with home, or someone having the ability to track me via internet? Meh, I can just sked with my Dad (phone patch equipped) or into one of the nets that have phone patch capabiities. It's never failed.


edit: Addressing the OP's question as to worst case propogation.....depends. But, the worst I've experienced is probably half way across the country (three or four states distant) from here in So Cal. Sometimes the closer stations can be the most difficult with HF when a band is working "long". Again, it's all about knowing how the bands work at a given time.
 
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Mashurst

Adventurer
Wow Thanks for all the great information. Your comments really have answered a lot of questions for me about possible applications.
I love the big hat/ no cows analogy, and I must admit to fitting that description a bit. I like to have a nice setup that I could do XYZ with even thought I don't get to do XYZ as much as I would like.
I'm having a great time learning about HAM and I'm sure the proficiency will come. Like I said in the OP I'll be starting out with VHF but partly from this thread I know that I will not be happy until I can use HF for my rig as well. I've asked this kind of question on HAM forums and mostly folks don't get it.
 

Tennmogger

Explorer
Hi Mashurst,

You have received some really good information already, maybe all you need. I might add that there's one mode of Ham radio that gets overlooked, and that's NVIS propagation. That's Near Vertical Incident Skywave, a big name but just consider it is blasting the signal upward from a low, horizontal, antenna and letting it bounce back down relatively close to your location. I''m talking just hundreds of miles radius, not thousands, but for getting a signal through at any time it's a great mode.

If you carry a roll of wire about 50 ft long and have an antenna matcher, you can stop along any trail or at your evening camp, stretch the wire out from your radio at the height you can reach, and most likely get someone on 40 or 80 meters. The vehicle acts as the counterpoise.

Obviously this is not handy to do while moving LOL.

Bob

WB4ETT, licensed since '65.


Wow Thanks for all the great information. Your comments really have answered a lot of questions for me about possible applications.
I love the big hat/ no cows analogy, and I must admit to fitting that description a bit. I like to have a nice setup that I could do XYZ with even thought I don't get to do XYZ as much as I would like.
I'm having a great time learning about HAM and I'm sure the proficiency will come. Like I said in the OP I'll be starting out with VHF but partly from this thread I know that I will not be happy until I can use HF for my rig as well. I've asked this kind of question on HAM forums and mostly folks don't get it.
 

xtatik

Explorer
An excellent point Bob. I set up a NVIS wire a few months ago. It's cut for 40 and runs across the driveway at about 18' which is just under 1/8 wave above conductive ground. This was put up when I was peddling the idea of having an hf net for this and other groups. Unfortunately, it didn't work too well. I think it's still too high to be a cloudwarmer. A good indicator was logging a Norwegian station on its first try......oh well. I'd like to lower it but I've run out of room for stringing wire, hi hi.
 

craig

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Like anything we bring on the trail there needs to be a reason to bring the tool with you. If the goal is to communicate back to the house that you are OK, then a SPOT works great.

If however you are traveling in a group and have installed a HAM radio to communicate with that group already. Already have a GPS or laptop, then adding 1 wire between the radio and GPS is a simple way of getting the most out of the gadgets that are already being carried.

The benefit of APRS on the trail is primarily that the trail leader can more easily keep the convoy together. Campsite/trail meetups are nice too, but the majority of the use happens on the trail itself.

For those vehicle's that don't have a licensed HAM/APRS setup. The Byonics MicroTrak is a turnkey way for a trail leader to track them. http://www.byonics.com/microtrak/mtaio.php Just strap one of these on their vehicle and you are good to go.

t_aio2.jpg
 

xtatik

Explorer
The benefit of APRS on the trail is primarily that the trail leader can more easily keep the convoy together. Campsite/trail meetups are nice too, but the majority of the use happens on the trail itself.

For those vehicle's that don't have a licensed HAM/APRS setup. The Byonics MicroTrak is a turnkey way for a trail leader to track them. http://www.byonics.com/microtrak/mtaio.php Just strap one of these on their vehicle and you are good to go.

t_aio2.jpg

First off, the Byonics gadget does require an amateur license of Technician or better. Secondly, if trail use is the primary function for APRS for the offroad community, it would still require each of the transmitting vehicles in the convoy to have licensed amateurs at the control point. So, with this in mind....wouldn't the simple FM radios and rear view mirrors suffice? If the #4 vehicle suddenly stops, wouldn't the #3 or #5 vehicle grab a mike and announce a possible problem? Truth is, most here know the answers to these questions already from actual practice. So I'm still left wondering of the real-world necessity for this on the trail, or is it just more tech junk in the trunk.
 
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craig

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
First off, the Byonics gadget does require an amateur license of Technician or better. Secondly, if trail use is the primary function for APRS for the offroad community, it would still require each of the transmitting vehicles in the convoy to have licensed amateurs at the control point. So, with this in mind....wouldn't the simple FM radios and rear view mirrors suffice? If the #4 vehicle suddenly stops, wouldn't the #3 or #5 vehicle grab a mike and announce a possible problem? Truth is, most here know the answers to these questions already from actual practice. So I'm still left wondering of the real-world necessity for this on the trail, or is it just more tech junk in the trunk.

Yes, the trail leader would need a license but not the guys truck that you strap it to. Tracking a truck remotely with one of these is the same as tracking a weather balloon which is a very common application of APRS.

FRS radios are awful on the trail and don't work very well at all.

I regularly lead trail runs following "convoy rules" as you describe. With more than 2-3 trucks convoyes get extremely stretched out. Getting on the radio all the time is one way to do it, but APRS works better. You don't interrupt people who are trying to fix their truck, go over an obstacle, etc. You don't have to take your hand off the wheel, you just glance at the screen. It's just easier.

As for more "tech junk in the trunk"... what extra junk? You already have a radio and already have a GPS. It literally takes 1 wire to connect the two. Having them connected makes them both more powerful w/o bring any extra junk in the trunk.
 

SunTzuNephew

Explorer
Yes, the trail leader would need a license but not the guys truck that you strap it to. Tracking a truck remotely with one of these is the same as tracking a weather balloon which is a very common application of APRS.

FRS radios are awful on the trail and don't work very well at all.

I regularly lead trail runs following "convoy rules" as you describe. With more than 2-3 trucks convoyes get extremely stretched out. Getting on the radio all the time is one way to do it, but APRS works better. You don't interrupt people who are trying to fix their truck, go over an obstacle, etc. You don't have to take your hand off the wheel, you just glance at the screen. It's just easier.

As for more "tech junk in the trunk"... what extra junk? You already have a radio and already have a GPS. It literally takes 1 wire to connect the two. Having them connected makes them both more powerful w/o bring any extra junk in the trunk.


OK, explain how you, in car 1, can be the control operator for a station that you don't have access to or a remote control for, in car 4 thats 5 miles away?
 

xtatik

Explorer
Yes, the trail leader would need a license but not the guys truck that you strap it to. Tracking a truck remotely with one of these is the same as tracking a weather balloon which is a very common application of APRS.

FRS radios are awful on the trail and don't work very well at all.

I regularly lead trail runs following "convoy rules" as you describe. With more than 2-3 trucks convoyes get extremely stretched out. Getting on the radio all the time is one way to do it, but APRS works better. You don't interrupt people who are trying to fix their truck, go over an obstacle, etc. You don't have to take your hand off the wheel, you just glance at the screen. It's just easier.

As for more "tech junk in the trunk"... what extra junk? You already have a radio and already have a GPS. It literally takes 1 wire to connect the two. Having them connected makes them both more powerful w/o bring any extra junk in the trunk.

Aside from the well known (to licensed amateurs) point made above by STN....the mfr'r also clearly states that an individual operating one (again, operating point) must be licensed. Any truck that gizmo gets strapped to instantly beomes a HAM radio station (if transmitting), and if the occupant is not licensed he would be operating illegally.
And, are you certain that "just one wire" from my 857d will have me functional? If so, will I still have uninterrupted access/use of both my FM and HF concurrently?

edit: Actually I borrowed the "convoy" word from your earlier post. Really not my kinda' syntax...too paramiltary sounding to me.
 
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craig

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Aside from the well known (to licensed amateurs) point made above by STN....the mfr'r also clearly states that an individual operating one (again, operating point) must be licensed. Any truck that gizmo gets strapped to instantly beomes a HAM radio station (if transmitting), and if the occupant is not licensed he would be operating illegally.
And, are you certain that "just one wire" from my 857d will have me functional? If so, will I still have uninterrupted access/use of both my FM and HF concurrently?

edit: Actually I borrowed the "convoy" word from your earlier post. Really not my kinda' syntax...too paramiltary sounding to me.

The unit comes pre-configured from the manufacturer and can only be changed by plugging it into a PC. Whether it is strapped to a dog, a hot air balloon, or a truck doesn't determine who the operator is. If it is illegal to track a truck then it is illegal to track a model rocket a hot air balloon, or any of the other popular remote tracking activities that APRS is used for. I'm a licensed HAM who follows the rules. If I've mis-interpreted FCC regulations on this matter I'd genuinely like to know how this case is different than the hot air balloon case.

I don't know about your 857d specifically. With the Kenwood D7/D700/D710 series of radios it is one wire. There are some very complicated APRS setups out there, but that isn't necessary if one plans carefully.

I agree on the term "convoy" as I'm anything but a para-military guy. I used the term because it is the most common term used in the offroading community to described travel where each vehicle is responsible for insuring that the vehicle behind them keeps up. I'm not aware of another term for it.

Anyway, my intent in posting was to indicate that there are simple ways of doing APRS and that there are good applications for it. As I said in my first post, everyone needs to evaluate every item that goes in their truck and determine if it provides useful enough functionality to warrant packing it. I know I cycle back and forth between simple and complex as I learn how to get the functionality I want w/o packing too much gear. I pack uniquely for each trip based on # of trucks, my role, duration, etc. I fully respect everyone's right to do the same. I just didn't want APRS to be mis-represented as being an overly complex gadgety technology when it doesn't have to be.

Craig
 
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