Level & lift? Lift only? Level only? Help me decide!

JakeH

Adventurer
No rovers in my future, but I don't really consider a switched compressor to be magic either. If I did bags, they would just be on manual valves, no compressor.

I guess I just don't understand how adding a leaf will soften up the back while empty. I get how it would help when loaded, but that's only a few weeks a year. I guess I want my cake & to eat it too. I'm looking for the best of both worlds, but on the cheap...
 

Stumpalump

Expedition Leader
No rovers in my future, but I don't really consider a switched compressor to be magic either. If I did bags, they would just be on manual valves, no compressor.

I guess I just don't understand how adding a leaf will soften up the back while empty. I get how it would help when loaded, but that's only a few weeks a year. I guess I want my cake & to eat it too. I'm looking for the best of both worlds, but on the cheap...
You ride on the main spring most of the time but as soon as it's compressed or flattened you ride on the stiff lower leafs. The main spring is only a tad too soft so we only want to keep you riding on that soft main leaf longer in time and longer in the suspension stroke. You lost the solo main leaf from the equation when you sagged an inch or two when lightly loaded. Should a truck do that? The way to fix it is to get the main back in its original or new and unloaded shape with the help of a helper spring. "Bu but"... "That's the one very soft leaf that sold me the truck and I like it because I drive empty as well." That's OK. That's good and you can keep it....Adding one additional soft leave in that thick pack will not change your comphort because of two things. One is it will help you stay in that soft few inches longer and it will blow thru that travel a tad slower. The second reason is that one little leaf will not change the way it feels because you are not adding much. Unless that store bought add a leaf is too thick or a massive lower spring it won't even lift you truck. The one I told you to do it with a stock leaf really won't "lift it". You will never feel any additional harshness from one or two leafs because in the scheme of things one little leaf won't do that much. You don't need much. Your still convinced that you do not want to change your empty rate or main spring. Ok then do the same thing to the next spring down. So let's overthink it and we start over with the same process...Your second spring is too soft and your sagging. Put a helper under it. You will still blow thru your main when loaded but you won't get into the super stiff lowest springs as fast. I know they all move a little all the time but think of each leaf as only being important at different depths into the stroke. Put a leaf under both and you might gain 5/8". It's not so dramatic that it will change your ride. You won't even fell it until you hit bumps and then you will like it. We are leaving the bottom alone and adding a smidge to the the top with the same exact soft main or second spring the nice factory used. If you want more, less or stock then lossen the Ubolts and use your understanding to get it just how you like. I'm not web wheeling this what I have done over and over. I built more than one Jeep packs. I just modded a tandem axle trailer. Last month a did a canoe trailer build and hammered arch out of leafs. On my desert sand car I run king coil overs with separate rate upper and lower springs. I just put a stiffer upper one on to ease the chop. (That's tire tracks in the sand). Stiffer spring gave a softer ride in the sand. The dirtbikes I pay a suspension tuner. Actually I paid on the buggy as well but the way they work is you pay them once and then tell you what to change to dial it in. I paid my dues, run with fast desert guys and have built my fair share of rigs. Take my advise and hit up a junkyard. Money is no object with suspension at the speed I go and that's exactly what I'd do if it were my truck with that issue.
 
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JakeH

Adventurer
I feel every crack & speed bumps are fine. It handles big hits well when empty, but small stuff when empty just drives me nuts. There is so much travel in this suspension & I never get to use any of it until it's loaded down. Then it rides like a Cadillac over bumps big & small. I want to level & shift some weight rearward to get more flex out back, but I don't want to ride nose up when it is loaded.
 

comptiger5000

Adventurer
If you want to get creative, you can likely move some weight back without needing to raise the nose (which won't move a ton of weight anyway). Battery relocation is often a big way to move weight, as the typical location is way out over the front end. Moving that to the back end of the cab or the front of the bed will get a decent bit of weight off the nose and onto the rear axle.
 

Stumpalump

Expedition Leader
Your smart enough to not trust the suspension retailers or the internet until you understand. Good. Wrong advise here is generally not given like it is on the regular forums because its loaded with smarter than us people to correct us or to ******** when they read that the right advise has already been given. But let's assume this is just the Internet and you are going to fiqure this out. Trouble shoot every fundamental from the tippy top and you can make a great decision. Help us first.

What size/make wheels and tires and what air pressure do you run? What was the original factory wheel and tire and what is the recomended pressure for the factory tires as indicated on the sticker placed on the drivers side door jam?

What make, model, year truck and how many miles?

What bolt on goodies and gear is in your empty truck? (Winch, sliders, bumpers, shovel, hi lift Jack, strap, stereo amp, shocks) Everthing.

Is you loaded truck 200lbs of weight and where do you put it in relation to the rear axle?

How many passengers and are you over 200 lbs? Does Fido ride shotgun?
 

JakeH

Adventurer
Yeah I prefer to tell the shop what I need, I don't use my wallet for experiments!
It's a 2012 Nissan Frontier pro-4x. Running stock wheels with Yokohama geolandar AT at 35psi in stock size, 265/75/16 if memory serves.

Currently no bolt on goodies, just a vinyl tri fold bed cover, which is 20 pounds maybe? I rarely have passengers, but when I do I don't notice any difference in ride quality. It's actually a little embarrassing to watch my wife & mother in law bounce around like they're on a carnival ride when we're just going to dinner... I'm about 180 & the 40lb dog does ride in the back seat pretty often. He doesn't complain about the bumps though!
When we load up for travel I try to put the largest bags in front of the axle & load the small ones directly over the back axle--Not that there's much space in that 5' bed to choose from. That smoothes the ride out instantly just having weight back there. If I'm buying mulch or something, a couple hundred pounds directly over the axle & I ride home thinking "THIS is how the truck should ride all the time!"
 

thethePete

Explorer
Well unfortuantely, given the inherent nature of leaf springs, that's just not gonnna happen. It's impossible to have a spring/shock combo that will carry as much weight as you expect it to without sagging, and still ride that cushy when unladen. The only way to achieve that is with air, and that's expensive and complex.

I have yet to ride in a pickup, brand new or otherwise that does not have the rear end chatter at least a little over bumps while completely empty (I haven't ridden in enough new, coil-sprung Rams to know how they act). It's nearly impossible to have the shock valved stiff enough to handle the load you ask it to, while still giving you the unloaded performance you want. Quality shocks will greatly improve things, but unless you're willing to spend a lot of time and money, you'll have to accept a sacrifice on one end or the other. You have to remember, you're asking a pickup to ride like a car while empty, or while carrying an additional 1000#. That's a pretty large gap you expect it to excel at.

You could probably run closer to 30psi in your tires and that would help significantly. A stiffer carcass tire like what you're on will ride harsher while unladen than a P-tire will, but it will also support itself better and probably allow you to run a slightly lower tire pressure. Look up how to chalk your tires properly so you can find the ideal pressure to wear evenly and ride nicely. Don't go lower than 30psi or it'll get squirmy and you will begin to sacrifice handling.

You may be able to get satisfactory performance out of it if you're willing to spend on a set of aftermarket leafs and rebuildable shocks, but you're looking at $2000 in parts for the rear alone to go that route, probably more.

Anything can happen for enough money.
 

comptiger5000

Adventurer
Shocks can make a big difference in ride quality even with stiff springs, so if the stock springs carry weight well enough but have poor ride quality, I'd be tempted to look into different shock, preferably something good quality and either adjustable or re-valveable so you can experiment a little if you don't get it perfect on the first try.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Sounds like the whole "problem" can be solved with a couple bags of sand placed over the rear axle. Levels the truck and smooths the ride. Cost: $8. Easily undone for trips when the bed actually carries stuff.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it's the inherent nature of small trucks to be a little bouncy when empty. You can fix that with time and money, but then you usually compromise its viability as an actual truck.
 

JakeH

Adventurer
Ha! Funny you mention that...I've been riding with 2 sandbags over the back axle for the last few months for that exact reason!
 

Stumpalump

Expedition Leader
Drop your air pressure in the rear in 1 lbs increments until you cannot feel cracks in the road. Front and rear generally never wind up the same. Write the number you settle on inside your wheel well so you don't forget. Bump the air up when loaded. Tires are your suspension for cracks or basically your 1st inch of travel. Leave the factory Bilstein shocks alone. If you still want to control sag then describe what it does to the biggest spring shop in your area and have them add or remove just the right leafs for your use. Easy job for them that's not expensive. Suspension tuning is not one size fits all. A good shop gets motivated to do a nice custom tweek for a caring customers instead of just another truck or trailer with a bent or broken spring. They get those all day.
 

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