Jeep Cherokee Widetrack Revival - with questions for the experts - Stoffregen Motorsports

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to delve into this further, but I do see multiple part numbers for heater cores. I also see a part number for a heater valve but haven't found it in the diagram yet.

I do not remember a valve on my '77 or '78 Cherokees. Someone did install a valve on a family member's '76 in a vain attempt to keep it a reasonable temperature in the car w/o a/c during the summer so that coolant wasn't circulating through the core. Maybe over the weekend I'll have time to scan and upload the pages for you out of the parts book.

Thank you for looking into it for me. Factory parts manuals come in handy. I wish I had one for this, but it probably wouldn't do much good anyway, as so many of the parts are no longer available. Even knowing what to call a part is usually half the battle.

I did order a heater core, and it should be here today. Hopefully I'll have it installed this weekend, along with the newly refurbished heater and air boxes.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I forgot to show you guys what I built my dad for father's day.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I spent the weekend installing the heater core and heater boxes. Searching for a proper replacement heater core with the flanges attached proved unsuccessful so a core without the flanges was adapted to fit inside the heater box. I made a simple bracket that riveted to the inside of the heater box upon which the new core could rest. Some thick self adhesive foam strips weer used to isolate the core from touching anything. The entire mod took about two hours, and then...I found the right core on BJ's offroad website. Turns out, the core they sell with the flanges is listed as a 1978-19** core. As is common with Jeeps, mine must have been built using whatever they had on hand at the time. Whatever. The work is done.

In an attempt to keep inside temps down, I did install a 4-way, bypass type heater valve, right up against the heater box. I still need to figure out how to actuate it (via cable), but I have some ideas. During initial testing, the heater core did not stay cold while the engine was up to temp, but it did remain a couple dozen degrees lower than engine temp. I imagine heat soak is not avoidable. This effort may have been in vain, but again, it's done, so I'm leaving it.

As it turns out, the vacuum actuated dash mounted controls for the HVAC is in need of some love. So that will get repaired soon. Side note- why is it such a pain in the ass to remove the Cherokee gauge cluster? Unless I am doing it wrong, one needs to remove the column shroud at the base of the dash, and then lower the column to get the cluster out. I've been spoiled by building so many Toyota Land Cruisers I guess. Everything on a Toyota makes sense, while many things on the Jeep has me scratching my head. Removing the gauge cluster should not take twenty minutes, ever.

One more part that got replaced over the weekend was the oil psi sender. The original was leaking oil and I replaced it with a mechanical gauge for the first fire-up so I could see the actual oil pressure. That mechanical gauge remained for a while, but I figured the engine had proven itself and I could now revert to the original electrical gauge, The new sending unit, Standard Motor Products pn- PS59, installed easily enough, and worked well enough, for about ten minutes. Then the gauge went to zero. Diagnosing revealed the brand new sending unit had failed. This set me ablaze. Why so many new replacement parts fail immediately or are bad right out of the box is a topic which I am glad to discuss at length until I am red in the face. Ask my wife. She's probably tired of hearing my rants. So...a new one is on the way, compliments of Rock Auto. Hopefully this one lasts at least twenty minutes.

 

[SkiWill]

Yes, Jeep did built vehicles with whatever they could scrounge up, particularly in the late 1970s AMC days when AMC wasn't exactly a company in the best position within the automotive industry and the joke "Just Everyone Else's Parts" really rang true.

I can't say that I've removed a dash cluster, but it's probably a pain. My experience with working with Japanese companies and working on a couple of Toyotas is that everything is incredibly scrutinized to a sometimes frustrating level of detail. It takes forever to get anything built, but it is very well thought out, easy to service, and generally obsolete by the time it's built and then has a 10+ year product cycle after coming to market. And if it works, it won't be touched like drum brakes and 5 speed automatic transmissions still built in the 2020s, which is still hard for me to comprehend.

I was in a factory in Japan three years ago and someone was bemoaning how old fashioned everything was and comparing it to an ultramodern US factory that was highly automated. It was true that it was a very old school assembly line, but I pointed out the massive gap between the quality of the product that was being turned out in Japan compared to the throw a cat though the panel gap automated factory in the US.

Jeep, even in the 1970s, paid a lot of attention to what they could, and made some very good design decisions from a 4x4 perspective. Look at the underside of your Cherokee and you will notice that everything vital like gas tanks are tucked up with a completely flat belly even with the frame rails. Then go look at a 2023 4Runner with a gas tank and thin skid plate hanging 3" below the frame rails like a grappling hook. Trade offs with all vehicles. Despite what the evangelists of any vehicle or manufacturing approach say, there are trade offs. We just have to figure out which ones we can live with.

I guess I'd rather have a Jeep that was put together by Toyota, but then it wouldn't really be a Jeep or a Toyota.

Oh, and replacement parts for old Jeeps are the only parts that were worse than OEM parts for old Jeeps. The aftermarket for these things is just deplorable. You have my deepest sympathy on that issue.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

This is a topic I think about a lot. Each vehicle has its own unique attributes, and if you take those attributes and compare them, sometimes you come up with zero comparison at all. Apples to oranges. The glaringly obvious thing about the Jeep is the exterior styling. American stylists have always had a thing for the dramatic and the Wagoneer/Cherokee styling is certainly that. The belt line is high, while the roof line is low (and descending towards the rear). The pointy shark-like nose has no purpose but looks. Compare those two features with a Toyota FJ60 and the Land Cruiser ends up looking a little boring. As if designed by committee (as it undoubtedly was). Every body panel on the FJ60/62 fits neatly around something with no flourishes except maybe a body crease here and there.

Mechanically speaking, the designers at Jeep had a lot going for them. The American attitude that the world is your playground absolutely had a role to play in the flat belly you mention. I think even Norman Rockwell understood that to some degree as his paintings depicted Americans doing things other than watching TV. Our desire to be outside certainly helped Jeep design the chassis of the early 4x4s that came of their assembly lines.

It's an interesting point you have about Japanese being obsolete after ten years, though I may not entirely agree. Here's a case in point - The Wagoneer was designed in the early '60s and production ran all the way to 1991 (in North America. Much longer if you take into account South America's IKA). That's a healthy life span. Toyota's production run typically lasted around ten years for any specific body style (except for the 25/40 series). I'd say that Jeep overstayed their welcome with an initially beautiful design, while Toyota brought a less than good looking product to market (speaking in terms of the 60 series) to begin with. From a mechanical standpoint, one can not compare with the sturdy Toyota platform, but we're not just talking mechanicals here. You have to love the vehicle you drive.

For the record - I own both Jeeps and Toyotas. Someday you guys will see my HJ60 diesel high-roof. It's a rust bucket which means it will be a while before I can muster the time, but it is so ugly, and that is precisely why I love it.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

What the hell. Let's get this thing registered. I figure it's time so next week I'll pop into DMV to take the Cherokee off on non-op status. Yes, you need to go into the DMV office to do this, which seems stupid to me. Everything else can be done online, but not non-op stuff.

So far, the Cherokee hasn't done anything weird though my trust is still not 100%. Not surprising to have limited trust in a vehicle that has been sitting for 15 years.

Fingers crossed!!!

 

[Jim K in PA]

Rockauto has the heater valve - not a bypass type.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Right, that's why I got confused, because I didn't think the Cherokee even had one. So when I saw the part listing on Rock Auto, it made me think. I wonder if it was an option for other climates.

Rockauto has the heater valve - not a bypass type.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I want to give a huge thank you to @SkiWill for the parts books. He was kind enough to send me copies of the factory parts manuals. Super helpful and a very kind gesture. Thanks again.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Orange is the new black. That's the name I like for our Cherokee. It's too long, I know, so another name is in the works.

Finally made it down to DMV and got plates and stickers for Jack-o-lantern (maybe?). Any trip to DMV is like a trip to the Amazon rainforest - you never know what you might find. I'm never surprised at the curves thrown at me when I walk through those government doors, so I go prepared, with as little paperwork as possible (don't want to confuse anyone) and three forms of payment.

There was still a bit of work to get done before it could drive - I fixed the bad-out-of-the-box oil psi sender, then decided to renew the gauges and heater controls. The cluster is a pain to remove so I wanted it to be DONE before it went back into the dash. The engine turned aluminum overlay was damaged, so that was removed. The plastic lenses were blurry and fallen off, so those were polished and epoxied back into place. Then the HVAC controls were taken apart, block surfaced, lubed up and reassembled. I also took time to install the new Team Grand Wagoneer plastic glove box insert, which took way more time than it should have. After all that work was done, the HVAC controls were verified to work, the gauges read properly and I was able to stash the reg and insurance papers in the glove box. Time for an extended test drive.

That didn't go well...

A slight wobble in the passenger rear axle shaft still produces a minor vibration, and that's annoying. I'll have to source a replacement shaft sooner than later. May as well replace both sides wheel bearings and seals while I'm at it.

Anyway, the test drive was nice, with only the wobble to complain about. On any test drive, there's a balance of easing into it, and really giving it all you got. I like to take it easy the further away from home I get, but close to home, that's when you mash the throttle pedal to see what problems may arise. I knew I had a weird ignition thing going on after a full throttle higher RPM event (it would start to run on seven cylinders), and that persisted, but I also figured out how to "fix" it afterwards. In park, I would gently bring the RPMs up and feather the throttle until all cylinder were firing. I figured it was a weak spark thing going on, but I was wrong. While feathering the throttle, at around 4000 RPMs, the engine gave a medium size bang and it died. I didn't hesitate to remove the distributor cap, and guess what - the reluctor ring had blown apart, completely destroying all of the distributor's internals in the process. Perfect time to convert to an HEI ignition.

HEI in hand (Summit Racing brand instead of the DUI HEI which I wanted and was 8 weeks out), I am waiting for plug wires to arrive. Hopefully by this time tomorrow, I will be removing the stock distributor and installing the new parts.

Wish me luck! Should be straight forward enough, right? Well, like any trip to the DMV, I am prepared for anything at this point.

Summary to date - how can one vehicle be soooo entirely clapped out that almost every single mechanical piece needs replacement? That's what allowing a vehicle to sit for 15 years does.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Update - The HEI is installed, and the Cherokee runs great!

I should have been a bit more prepared though. The days that the Jeep sat blocking the doorway of my shop, It never once occurred to me that the distributor gears might have been compromised during the distributor explosion event. They were, and at least three teeth were missing from the distributor gear. The corresponding gear on the cam showed no signs of damage though, so we decided to install the new HEI and roll the dice. The way I figure it (and the way most mechanics think) is that I could pull the oil pan, all accessories and front cover to replace the cam gear and fish out the metal pieces now, or I could run it the way it is and (hopefully) be no worse off if the worst comes to fruition. I did drain the oil in an attempt at finding the metal from the driven gear, but only found one, so I installed a magnetic drain plug and will drain the oil again in the next hundred miles or so, to try and find the remaining pieces.

One error that we made, is an error made hundreds if not thousands of time before - we installed the new distributor 180 degrees out at first. I simply didn't want to go through the trobule of pulling the number one spark plug and bringing it up to TDC to verify it was on the compression stroke. I know, that would have taken all of five minutes. But, I didn't, and the results were a massive explosion and a completely destroyed muffler. The bang was so loud that my apprentice's ear were ringing badly and my puppy was nowhere to be found. She found a hiding spot under a truck in the rear of the shop and her legs were shaking vigorously.

Mufflers are cheap, and the replacement cost only $18 at Summit Racing. So with a new muffler installed and the HEI all tuned up and ready to roll, our first drive was a blast. The engine does run more smoothly and there is definitely better throttle response. More HP? I won't go that far, but I can at least get the tires to chirp on a fast launch now, whereas before, all I could get was a pop from the carburetor.

So that's it - HEI install went off with a bang, daily driver status established, fingers crossed.

I will post up pics soon...

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Finally took some time to upload pics.

Here's the heater core and box refurbish. I couldn't find the "right" heater core, but then after I got this one installed (with a bit of custom bracketry) I figured out that my Jeep is using a later model core. Probably came that way from the factory. The date cutoff is right around the time of this Jeeps manufacture.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

While I was at it, I went through and cleaned up the wiring for the fans and also restored the vacuum actuator mechanisms.

I then installed a 4-way heater valve. That was an attempt to isolate hot water from reaching the core when the heater control was in the cold position. It works, but not as great as I would have hoped. In other words, the core eventually warms up to within about 30 degrees of engine temp. Heat soak I guess.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Oops. That wiring harness is Toyota, but you get the idea...

Steering links for a wide track Cherokee are harder to find, and one of the joints was NLA, but luckily, the one I had was in good shape, so I blasted it and repainted it and installed it with a new boot.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Fixing the gauge cluster. No, I did not restore it. I just wanted everything to work properly, not rattle and have clean lenses. The cluster was in decent shape to begin with, but the lenses had fallen off. The heater controls were frozen too.

Let me add a side note. I do a lot of Land Cruisers here and I have gotten spoiled with how working on them is so intuitive and largely pretty simple. On the Jeep, to remove the gauge cluster, you need to remove the steering column shroud, then lower the column. To get the gauges out, you need to label and disconnect the heater control vacuum hoses and also the wires that go to the amp meter, which are hot by the way, so disconnecting those two wires and leaving them dangling could cause a short.

Repairing the heater controls was simple enough. Basically I just disassembled and cleaned them, then reassembled them with a little lube in places, and they work great.

Anyways, here are some gauge pics. Oh, I also removed the engine turned overlay as it was in bad shape. I'll probably buy a new one, but that will come later.