If I remember the Icarus and ASPW videos they do cut off the full roof. But maybe they can work with Ineos and figure something out. The roof electronics panel is designed to be easily serviceable and modular. So maybe that’ll help
INEOS Grenadier
- Thread starter Correus
- Start date
If I remember the Icarus and ASPW videos they do cut off the full roof. But maybe they can work with Ineos and figure something out. The roof electronics panel is designed to be easily serviceable and modular. So maybe that’ll help
utherjorge
Observer
hey bub. I just looked and don't see anything more than one story on your IG.
onemanarmy
Explorer
I just can't wrap my head around the guy wanting to build a rugged, analog truck and then using a BWM engine and trans and having a screen at all. Thats not what you said you wanted!
If I had a billion dollars and a blank sheet of paper (every car guys dream).....ain't no WAY I'm having a screen for ANYTHING except a small, taked on, easily removed piece to meet regs. Use RCA cables and the buyer can use it or unplug it and remove.
And instead of BMW....partner with a manufacturer that can provide a tried and true, cheap, fix almost anywhere drivetrain....with minimal electronics, emissions, and computers (meet the regs, but JUST THE MINIMUM....you started with a blans slate.....you could do ANYTHING!) Can you imagine what you would do? 5 or 6 mechanical gauges, manual levers for everything, cheap head and tail lights, easy to replace ubiquitous double DIN radio, manual seats, pushrod engine, HD automatic (if you offer an auto), HD 5 speed manual.....the recipe is so easy. It can still have nice seats and all the insulation to make it 'nice'
They got close, but fumbled at the 1 yard line.
If I had a billion dollars and a blank sheet of paper (every car guys dream).....ain't no WAY I'm having a screen for ANYTHING except a small, taked on, easily removed piece to meet regs. Use RCA cables and the buyer can use it or unplug it and remove.
And instead of BMW....partner with a manufacturer that can provide a tried and true, cheap, fix almost anywhere drivetrain....with minimal electronics, emissions, and computers (meet the regs, but JUST THE MINIMUM....you started with a blans slate.....you could do ANYTHING!) Can you imagine what you would do? 5 or 6 mechanical gauges, manual levers for everything, cheap head and tail lights, easy to replace ubiquitous double DIN radio, manual seats, pushrod engine, HD automatic (if you offer an auto), HD 5 speed manual.....the recipe is so easy. It can still have nice seats and all the insulation to make it 'nice'
They got close, but fumbled at the 1 yard line.
utherjorge
Observer
They might have fumbled a bit further out: I agree with every word you said but feel like that engine is an even bigger miss than you might have suggested here.
I'm a long way from a Bosch or a BMW dealership, and I live in Pennsylvania. I have to drive almost two hours if I wanted a dealer for my Lexus at this point. I can't even locate where the nearest Bosch is to where I am. And there's no one where I live whom I'd trust with a BMW. Certainly not a new one.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
It’s true that the BMW engine is probably more complex than we’d ideally want but I think this is the nature of the world we live in these days.
Remember that part of the goal here - beyond just making a great 4x4 - is to make a 4x4 that works and is available around the world. That means they need to be able to sell the same vehicle in Mozambique as they do in Montreal, and to sell it in Montreal it has to meet certain emissions standards.
In terms of service, they do have the goal of being able to get service within 45 minutes of anywhere. This is going to be accomplished via the small dealerships — not BMW dealers only, but “Ted Lake Marine” or “Martins Powersports” type places — the kind of shop that every town of more than 5k people has. They are also talking about parts fulfillment centres (a la Amazon) that can get the parts needed to where they need to be within 24 hours.
And on that note I’m actually OK with the BMW choice because it’s driven by this “parts availability” philosophy. It seems to me that Ineos really only had a couple of options here:
1) Develop their own engine. This would be a crazy challenging undertaking that would likely not result in a super reliable result mainly because the volume is so low in production that issues would take forever to reveal themselves and to some degree engine reliability is an iterative process.
2) Go with a pre-built motor from America or Asia. Many of the offerings from Asia would have to pass NA emissions. [EDIT: I wasn’t paying enough attention to my words; sorry folks. @onemanarmy rightfully called me on this, and I want to give context. I am 100% speculating here and I’m not at all an expert on this, but in this case I was specifically thinking of Ineos’ requirement to offer the Grenadier in both petrol and diesel, and the diesel offerings from various Asian manufacturers, and I’m not aware of many; the Cummins with Nissan is the only one that comes to mind, but I don’t follow the sector closely so I’m happy to be educated on this one! As for American producers, the only diesel I am aware of that is global is the Duramax from GM. Perhaps that was an option that was considered and rejected for some reason? Or an aftermarket, like Cummins or similar. Again - not at all a diesel expert so happy to be educated. ]
3) Go with a European engine. Which is what they did, I guess!
The reason for picking bmw is that BMW were the only engine makers that would guarantee production for ten years. Everyone else they spoke tomaxed out at 5 years. From a parts perspective alone, this is the right decision.[EDIT: I remember reading this in an article or something but I can’t find a source - if anyone remembers and can find it please let me know, but I would say this is “speculation” unless I can find out where I heard it from]
And finally the b58 is fairly well proven and is used in a lot of cars. There are some minor issues with them but nothing that would be regarded as abnormal; every engine has common failures and the B58’s are not more or less common than others.
I share folks hesitation as if I had my way a nice little Kubota tractor motor with no emissions or electronics would be perfect for this vehicle but then they’d never be able to sell it worldwide. But when I look at the options Ineos had, I can’t help but think they made the right call as I’m not sure about the other options being any better.
Remember that part of the goal here - beyond just making a great 4x4 - is to make a 4x4 that works and is available around the world. That means they need to be able to sell the same vehicle in Mozambique as they do in Montreal, and to sell it in Montreal it has to meet certain emissions standards.
In terms of service, they do have the goal of being able to get service within 45 minutes of anywhere. This is going to be accomplished via the small dealerships — not BMW dealers only, but “Ted Lake Marine” or “Martins Powersports” type places — the kind of shop that every town of more than 5k people has. They are also talking about parts fulfillment centres (a la Amazon) that can get the parts needed to where they need to be within 24 hours.
And on that note I’m actually OK with the BMW choice because it’s driven by this “parts availability” philosophy. It seems to me that Ineos really only had a couple of options here:
1) Develop their own engine. This would be a crazy challenging undertaking that would likely not result in a super reliable result mainly because the volume is so low in production that issues would take forever to reveal themselves and to some degree engine reliability is an iterative process.
2) Go with a pre-built motor from America or Asia. Many of the offerings from Asia would have to pass NA emissions. [EDIT: I wasn’t paying enough attention to my words; sorry folks. @onemanarmy rightfully called me on this, and I want to give context. I am 100% speculating here and I’m not at all an expert on this, but in this case I was specifically thinking of Ineos’ requirement to offer the Grenadier in both petrol and diesel, and the diesel offerings from various Asian manufacturers, and I’m not aware of many; the Cummins with Nissan is the only one that comes to mind, but I don’t follow the sector closely so I’m happy to be educated on this one! As for American producers, the only diesel I am aware of that is global is the Duramax from GM. Perhaps that was an option that was considered and rejected for some reason? Or an aftermarket, like Cummins or similar. Again - not at all a diesel expert so happy to be educated. ]
3) Go with a European engine. Which is what they did, I guess!
The reason for picking bmw is that BMW were the only engine makers that would guarantee production for ten years. Everyone else they spoke tomaxed out at 5 years. From a parts perspective alone, this is the right decision.[EDIT: I remember reading this in an article or something but I can’t find a source - if anyone remembers and can find it please let me know, but I would say this is “speculation” unless I can find out where I heard it from]
And finally the b58 is fairly well proven and is used in a lot of cars. There are some minor issues with them but nothing that would be regarded as abnormal; every engine has common failures and the B58’s are not more or less common than others.
I share folks hesitation as if I had my way a nice little Kubota tractor motor with no emissions or electronics would be perfect for this vehicle but then they’d never be able to sell it worldwide. But when I look at the options Ineos had, I can’t help but think they made the right call as I’m not sure about the other options being any better.
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ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I see that you, too, have tried to do business in Winnipeg!
(kidding - it’s improved a ton since I was a kid!)
onemanarmy
Explorer
Asian motors sold in the US now don't meet emissions?
Ford and GM have factories in Europe
However, if that 5 vs 10 years parts availablity bit is true, then OK. Carry on.
Ford and GM have factories in Europe
However, if that 5 vs 10 years parts availablity bit is true, then OK. Carry on.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Yeah you are totally right. I was distracted and not being careful enough with my words, and I didn’t articulate myself well there. Thank you for calling me out on that, @onemanarmy. Also in my post, I referred to building their own engine as “nuts”. I did this before I read your post above. I didn’t mean to suggest that part of your idea was ”nuts” in a negative way, I meant it was a “crazy hard undertaking”. I hope I didn’t cause offence in my post but if I did I apologize. I’ve gone back to edit it so it’s more clear for future readers too.
The 5 vs 10 thing was from an article I read some time ago - I’ll see if I can find the source and post it back up.
Edit - I took a look around but the closest I could find was a Road and Track article that spoke to the BMW motor being able to pass Euro 6 and 7 standards Which is a commitment out to 2025 when those take Effect according to Wikipedia (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...-bmw-powered-off-roader-with-familiar-looks/_) But I can’t seem to find the original source, so I’ll edit my last post again to reflect that. More carelessness on my part, I usually try not to say things I can’t point to a source on!
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utherjorge
Observer
So, avoiding auto dealerships nearby, I started to think.
Where I live, there is a Mahindra dealership less than a mile away, and that's why I have seen a couple of pre-lawsuit Roxors zipping around. (I love those things, by the way.) They also do Cub Cadet, too. Would they be the local place to get things serviced?
Where I work is even more rural. Again avoiding auto dealerships (and there are none) and repair shops (there are a few, including the local Subaru expert), there is a new powersports place that sells some tractor brand named "LS", and they sell Ariens and a bunch of Chinese knockoff ATV brands. In the other direction is a New Holland tractor dealer and a John Deere dealer. Would they be the local place?
The Bosch website is useless for finding a location at this time, but if there were any partnerships listed, it would be easy to guess what's what.
onemanarmy
Explorer
Every automaker can't serve 100% of the population. That will never happen. They will obviously take a look at where the most people live and make calculated moves to try and serve as many as possible in the US and Canada.
Someone living super remote and working even more remote may have to go without a few things, as they have made the choice to get away from most everything.
Someone living super remote and working even more remote may have to go without a few things, as they have made the choice to get away from most everything.
Mattlodi
Active member
here you have more pictures.
I have to say that the car looks much better in person than on the internet, I did the same questions mentioned before about the infotainment to the tester and it say "well, we are in 2021 after all" . The car are still in a prototype form so they were not fully working, btw the route we did was easy so they haven't stress it at all. Fuel consumption (for the diesel) should be around 12km/l which with a 92 liter tank results in a good range (imho)....what else can I say? Ah, the Recaro seats were one of the best seat I've ever sat on.
Engine wise maybe they could have adopted the 3.0 l4 diesel from fpt (Iveco), which is a real work horse, but they don’t have petrol engine in their catalog.
I apologize for any grammar errors, I am in a business trip with colleagues and i wrote quickly
I have to say that the car looks much better in person than on the internet, I did the same questions mentioned before about the infotainment to the tester and it say "well, we are in 2021 after all" . The car are still in a prototype form so they were not fully working, btw the route we did was easy so they haven't stress it at all. Fuel consumption (for the diesel) should be around 12km/l which with a 92 liter tank results in a good range (imho)....what else can I say? Ah, the Recaro seats were one of the best seat I've ever sat on.
Engine wise maybe they could have adopted the 3.0 l4 diesel from fpt (Iveco), which is a real work horse, but they don’t have petrol engine in their catalog.
I apologize for any grammar errors, I am in a business trip with colleagues and i wrote quickly
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ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I think so yes - based on what I saw on the BTG Live event and the press releases. I wasn’t able to find any info on the Bosch proper website but a look around at this link showed quite a few Bosch service centres near me that will look after the Grenadier. Based on what I saw these are all smaller independent shops.
Home | Bosch Auto Service
Bosch Auto Service - We repair all makes and models and offer oil changes, wheel alignments, regular vehicle maintenance, brake services and everything in between. Find a Bosch Auto Service near you.
am.boschcarservice.com
Agree, they are saying “majority of customers”. Here’s what they have on their site with this stuff:
I think they might be applying this to the UK roll out but when I listened to BTG Live the other day they made a similar comment about Africa (but I think they must have meant South Africa). But, when I check the map above, it looks like there are cases where the current offering of Service Centres has about 5 hours distance between them, so again, not sure on that 45 minute promise (But the deal with Bosch appears to be a good one - I don’t think there’s a BMW dealer every 5 hours in South Africa from what I could see)
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing these! Every time I see more photos I see new details. Looks great in the green.
I wonder - how did it appear to perform on that ramp test involving the shipping containers? I’m particularly interested in the downhill portion; since it’s an Auto it will likely be relying on it’s HDC to stop it from running away but I’m wondering if you got a sense of how it did?