INEOS Grenadier

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
@SkiWill - not sure if you were responding to my post or not, but of note, klahanie and my post were discussing a price point of under $100,000 Canadian Dollars; in the exchange rate, that works out to being about $73,000 United States dollars, which is very competitive for the high end of the numbers you have posted given this was described as being a figure that one would be "hard pressed" to reach.

Fully agree with everything you said though; I just wanted to clarify that currency conversion as it can throw perceptions in the conversation off and I realized I didn't specify.
 

Timcampsallover

Tree top flyer
I’ll definitely be more confident when I get my slot at actually driving one! I’m hoping we get to test drive before the next deposit deadline.
 
I finally got to see one in person at Overland Expo East and was pretty impressed with the look and feel of the demo especially like the steel wheels and use/placement of buttons. A few concerns (besides the amount of markup these units will get when the hit the US) is how the service network will work (rep could not answer this yet) and although a small gripe for me the rear passenger seats do not fold flat which I feel is a miss.
 

greg.potter

Adventurer
Apparently the first mass produced Greandiers are leaving the factory right now.
Yes I got an email this morning with the following statement:

A landmark moment. Another major milestone. And music to all our ears. We’ve started series production of our rugged 4X4.

That’s right. Grenadiers are now rolling off the production line at our facility, in Hambach. All thanks to the hard work and dedication of the INEOS Automotive team, our development partners, and our suppliers – plus your continued belief in and support of the project, of course.

It’s been quite the journey since we started out in 2017. Now we’re one step closer to getting Grenadiers out into the world. We can’t wait.
 

mk216v

Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
I had to re-read that klahanie; at first I thought it said "you'd be hard to get one for less than $100k" but now I realize they mean the exact opposite; even fully belled-and-whistled, you won't hit $100k. I blame the lack of coffee this morning!

When I do a VERY quick build-and-price of it's competition for folks like us (The 4-Runner, the Ranger, the Gladiator), the Ranger comes out in the mid- to high- $60s with the tremor, but you'd need to spend another $3-$5k on a cap which would never be quite water and dustproof. The 4-Runner comes in at the low $70s as does the Gladiator (which would also need the cap treatment to make it comparable to the Gren for cargo protection, and it would never be quite as good as a proper wagon). I don't have time to do more but I've done this a few times, and it always makes the Grenadier seem more competitive for what we are getting for the money. None of the above vehicles have the same payload or towing capacity, for instance.

I'm not saying it's the same -- if "you'd be hard pressed to hit $100k" means that with all the options you are at $98k, then we're talking about over $30k difference, which is significant. But even built out to the max in terms of capability, the competition still doesn't quite match what the Grenadier is offering. For the right buyer (like me) that extra 500lbs payload, 700 lbs towing, and the wagon configuration is worth a bit of a premium over the others on the market. Maybe not a $30k premium in my case, but mine isn't spec'd that high and I am comfortable paying $10-$15k more for the Grenadiers capability over what I would get in a Jeep/4Runner/Mid-size truck.

I also think the Aftermarket will allow us to "up-spec" a Gren with things like racks, snorkels, bumpers, etc. for potentially a good bit less than one can get those same things from the Factory.
Might as well wait for W463 G-Wagen's to drop more, spend $30k on one with under 100k on it, and for less than $60k you'd have a solidly upgraded Grenadier competitor. Granted, it'd have 100k vs 0k, have 20yr old technology, too complicated electronic/pneumatic/hydraulic triple diff locks, and not be able to run 33" tires without ESP going batisht crazy...but you'd have about $25k left in your pocket for travel. My $0.02.


Of course they're wracking up huge losses. They're not delivering vehicles yet. It takes a lot of upfront capital to start a car company, which is why this is Jim Ratcliffe's project and not mine. If the costs get towards $100k USD, you'll never see these actually in the wild. It will become another G class. At $59k GBP or $65k USD for one with locking diffs is probably the upper end of what I would consider. Too many other options if this is more like $75k and up. Want payload and more space? Go domestic full size. The underdog: a Land Rover Defender which actually has more towing and payload (yikes!). Jeeps, Broncos, Lexus GX460, 4Runner, etc. all with proven aftermarket and dealer network support. I want this to succeed and be priced competitively, but I'm also not extremely optimistic that it will be. Also, I'll be incredibly impressed if they actually start shipping to North America in 2023. I have a project I'm managing and what should be a fairly common 8" valve was just quoted as a 36 week lead item for a stupid valve. Considering all the parts and supply chains that have to be established for the Grenadier, and there's no way 2023 is realistic.
I like Rovers, but wouldn't buy a new style Defender; too many electronic issues to fail soon. You can do better.


I finally got to see one in person at Overland Expo East and was pretty impressed with the look and feel of the demo especially like the steel wheels and use/placement of buttons. A few concerns (besides the amount of markup these units will get when the hit the US) is how the service network will work (rep could not answer this yet) and although a small gripe for me the rear passenger seats do not fold flat which I feel is a miss.
Total miss on the rear seats. How can you be building an SUV, like this, in 2022 and not design completely flat fold seats? Rover did this back in ~2005 or earlier (17yrs ago!!).
 
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nickw

Adventurer
I like Rovers, but wouldn't buy a new style Defender; too many electronic issues to fail soon. You can do better.
Honest question - what does the Rover have (electronic wise) that the Gren doesn't or any alternative doesnt? I know the Gren has a manual Tcase, anything else?
 

mk216v

Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
Honest question - what does the Rover have (electronic wise) that the Gren doesn't or any alternative doesnt? I know the Gren has a manual Tcase, anything else?
The focused simplicity of the Grenadier looks to most likely have a whole lot less ECU/ECM/electronic modules than the new Defender.
"The new Defender features 85 ECUs, making the car capable of handling 21,000 network messages at any one time." That's a whole lot of potential for electronic issues/failures.
 

mk216v

Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
Bitchiin', thx! Funny to see the sculpted BMW shifter in there, where everything else is simpler lines.
 
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Cayenne-958-TDI

Active member
Does anyone know which scan tool the Grenadier folks have teamed with?
Would be great if it would also work with our TDI Cayenne.
Thanks,
 

mk216v

Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
Does anyone know which scan tool the Grenadier folks have teamed with?
Would be great if it would also work with our TDI Cayenne.
Thanks,
Would be BMW based, so factory tool is referred to as ICOM.
Our Autologic/OPUS tool should talk to the Grenadier, but the aftermarket is usually a few years behind new vehicles (as the scan tool companies have to buy the rights from the manufacturer, and of course the mfr's drag their feet as they don't want to sell to the indy's, although the Right To Repair Act says the mfr's have to at least offer it to indy's).
 

nickw

Adventurer
The focused simplicity of the Grenadier looks to most likely have a whole lot less ECU/ECM/electronic modules than the new Defender.
"The new Defender features 85 ECUs, making the car capable of handling 21,000 network messages at any one time." That's a whole lot of potential for electronic issues/failures.
Without context that doesn't mean much to me, how many does a Gren have? A good portion of those are not critical, annoying yes, but if your seat memory modules goes belly up you can still make it home.

Engine and transmission wise, I don't see the difference between any modern BMW or Rover and the Gren. The only place I can see the Gren being more simple is the transfer case....assuming it's actually manual and not manual over electronic.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Might as well wait for W463 G-Wagen's to drop more, spend $30k on one with under 100k on it, and for less than $60k you'd have a solidly upgraded Grenadier competitor. Granted, it'd have 100k vs 0k, have 20yr old technology, too complicated electronic/pneumatic/hydraulic triple diff locks, and not be able to run 33" tires without ESP going batisht crazy...but you'd have about $25k left in your pocket for travel. My $0.02.
Indeed - $30k might be a bit light by the looks of things today, but there are a handful in Canada in the $50-$70k range, and in Canada we might even see some ex-military ones up for government auction from time to time in the future. I'm personally not a huge fan of the platform, but most of my reasoning for that is entirely subjective and I fully acknowledge it is/can be a great choice if folks are willing to tackle the compromises you mentioned

Without context that doesn't mean much to me, how many does a Gren have? A good portion of those are not critical, annoying yes, but if your seat memory modules goes belly up you can still make it home.

Engine and transmission wise, I don't see the difference between any modern BMW or Rover and the Gren. The only place I can see the Gren being more simple is the transfer case....assuming it's actually manual and not manual over electronic.

The number of ECUs and electronic systems is less relevant than how reliant on those systems the vehicle is to function, and in reality we don’t know about the Grenadier until it’s been released and used by folks for a few months. But what it comes down to is that all of these vehicles will break — what happens when they do?

With the New Defender, it appears that at least some of the ways it breaks — an OTA update failing, a severed cable, a few other examples anecdotally around the web — suggests that it sits down on you and won’t move. That’s inconvenient in the driveway. It’s potentially deadly in the backcountry. It’s so reliant on the electronics in order to do its job — which is make the motor mote and the wheels wheel — that when those electronics go wrong, it seems that at least in some cases the motor no longer motes and thus the wheels don’t wheel, and it cannot be fixed on the side of the trail in these cases.

The Grenadier is claimed to be designed with Bushproofness in mind — which means even if the electronics go wrong, the motor might still mote and the wheels still wheel. To quote from a Toyota slogan that I heard on TV from Richard Hammond — “Lots of 4x4s will get you there, but a Land Cruiser will always get you home”. This was said after his rear diff exploded and he was forced to finish his journey by disconnecting the rear prop shaft and have his FJ40 crawl it’s way forward with it’s front wheels from locking the transfer case — that’s a trail side repair, doable with hand tools, and the rig got him where he needed to go (Sort of…but I won’t ruin the ending of that special for those who have yet to see it!). The Grenadier is meant to be designed with that fix-it-with-bailing-wire ethos in mind; the New Defender is most definitely not. If you had a Diff explode on the New Defender, because all of it is electronically controlled, I’d be willing to bet my paycheque that the vehicle would throw a code and the best case scenario is a low-speed “limp home” but I think even that is optimistic - I would suspect it would sit down completely, given the experiences of others with major failures.

That being said, the majority of New Defender owners seem thrilled with the rig and it works great for them. But there’s a handful (okay, maybe two handfuls) of stories where the rig has not worked great, and it wasn’t the kind of thing a guy could fix with hand tools and gumption - it requires dealership support and intervention and a tow truck. So for that reason, the Gren is appealing, because it’s supposed to be fixable by the shade-tree mechanic on the side of the trail — but we don’t know if they’ll deliver on the promise till it’s been on the market and a few folks have broken them. There will almost certainly be situations in the Gren that do cause it to fail — ECUs control the fuel flow and spark after all — but there are a lot of other critical systems (4x4, diff locks, suspension, etc.) that appear to be pretty analog in the Gren (and thus a good chance of a fella bodging together a fix in the back-of-beyond) as compared to the New Defender, which relies on digital systems for a lot more things.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Would be BMW based, so factory tool is referred to as ICOM.
Our Autologic/OPUS tool should talk to the Grenadier, but the aftermarket is usually a few years behind new vehicles (as the scan tool companies have to buy the rights from the manufacturer, and of course the mfr's drag their feet as they don't want to sell to the indy's, although the Right To Repair Act says the mfr's have to at least offer it to indy's).

I’ve been assuming it would be OBDII compliant for scanning; a $20 dongle and an iPhone app is enough to read those codes. Related, it was one of the reasons I love my Triumph bike - it’s OBDII, and I don’t need to wait for a software engineer to invent the equivalent of GS911 to check trouble codes, clear warnings, etc. I expect the Gren will be the same, but I’ll be horribly disappointed if it does have a proprietary or “walled garden” approach to code reading/getting into the guts of the system. I’m not certain about this given the BMW powerplant, but things like having the parts and service manual available online to owners (where most manufacturers charge thousands, if you can even buy them) suggests that the Gren won’t disappoint in this case too.
 

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