Indecision, the (Ford) Used Diesel Market and the Year 2021 - Need a sanity check

slepe67

Active member
Does OME make Super Duty lifts? I'd be fairly excited about one with a Carli system. But the type of owner who slaps a Rough Country on...

I don't hate the 7. 3s, but I definitely don't love them. I've had a couple.

As far as why people sell one they recently dumped a bunch of money into... I don't understand that either. I know my truck isn't an investment, but I'm sure not trying to throw money away! Detailed receipts would definitely make a difference though. I'd at least feel confident in what it is.
I know they do for 2000-era F250s. Havent looked into the late models yet.

Why not a little of both? There's plenty of just out of warranty/at the edge 2015-2019 Super Duties that you can just delete ( at the least remove the EGR system, which is the largest culprit, and increase MPG! )

Now if you want the ultra luxury Lariats, at least the 17+ still fetch mid-40s at minimum - I found the avg to be in the 50s with around 80k on the clock. You will find the odd Platinum on sale too in the 50s.

Or, an F150 Powerstroke? That is always an option too, depending on load etc.
I'm not 100% sure about deleting. I see them for sale all the time, but that mod always raises my eyebrows when looking at used trucks. Maybe it WAS jsut an average guy, trying to keep his 6.0/6.4 alive a while longer. Or was it a kid going to "all the power"?

Maybe Im in denial about spending that kind of money on a truck. In late 2019, I bought my Platinum (with 25,000 miles) for about $39,000. It was MINT. I traded it in 2020 (?) for what I paid for it. Not bad, I guess. I'd imagine that very truck today would be well over $60,000 I bet. Insanity.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe deleting the EGR system can technically be illegal, but that aside reselling a vehicle without it could be extremely problematic if people need it to pass emissions or something and they can cost a lot to add in prior to selling. If you do remove it, stash it away in a shed somewhere!
I honestly didn't know "deleting" was against federal law. I definately dont want to get caught up in that mess!

So, how do dealerships get away with selling deleted trucks?

Anyway, to get back to the questions you asked...

A few questions that have risen since my recent search began:
  1. Should I be leery of a seemingly nice truck with 350-390,000 miles on the odometer, but has a new engine? Why sell after spending all that money? As you no doubt have already considered, The engine replacement does nothing for all of the wear and tear on all the high mileage running gear.
  2. When folks replace engines, is it standard practice to replace turbo, HPOP, etc? No help here, but I’d guess that’s a very individual decision based on intelligence, budget, and the conditions of those, and whether the work was done just for re-sale prep of for to meet the concerns of the owners.
  3. Ive seen several trucks between Seattle and Denver with 20,000 miles on rebuilt transmissions. Not 15,000 or 30,000. 20,000. Makes me wonder...I’d wonder too, about what kind of driving was done and what the prior use of a truck was that killed the tranny, what they’d been hauling or carrying, etc. But did you mean trucks with low mileage that had already replaced the trannies (which would seem to be a bigger concern) or hi mileage trucks with replaced trannies that had only 20k-30k on those replaced units?
  4. What are your thoughts about buying trucks with lift kits? I'm eyeing one now with a 6-inch lift, and some fancy/too-flashy, city-slicker aluminum wheels... I'll remove the lift...My rule of thumb is that the flashier the trucks, the more abusive the drivers might have been in their show off driving use of it, based on witnessing that kind of overly exuberant Ya Hoo driving by drivers of the same, just sayin...
You captured what rattles around in my brain at night rather effectively! Thanks!
 

slepe67

Active member
from Hemmings motor news, 2020....some pretty darn big fines have been assessed and this push is growing ..

EPA launches crackdown on emissions defeat device makers
After finding dozens of aftermarket parts companies in violation of the Clean Air Act for selling emissions defeat devices last year, the Environmental Protection Agency has announced that it will step up enforcement against such companies and clamp down on any aftermarket parts designed to bypass emissions controls, whether intended for on- or off-road use.

The announcement came after the EPA reached its most recent settlement with an aftermarket parts seller, in which it found Punch It Performance and Tuning out of Florida to have sold more than 20,000 devices that "included hardware components and electronic tuning software, known as 'tunes,' that hack into and reprogram a motor vehicle’s electronic control module to alter engine performance and enable the removal of filters, catalysts and other critical emissions controls that reduce air pollution."

The owners of Punch It Performance and Tuning, who dissolved the companysometime after the EPA's investigation began in July 2015, were ordered to pay a civil penalty of $850,000 and surrender all software and source code they used to create the devices in question, according to the EPA. Punch It Performance appeared to focus largely on diesel-related products, including EGR-delete tunes.

"EPA will vigorously pursue and prosecute companies who attempt to circumvent emission controls that are required to reduce air pollution," Susan Bodine, the EPA's assistant administrator for enforcement and compliance assurance, said in a statement. "This case illustrates why stopping the manufacture, sale, and installation of aftermarket defeat devices is an EPA National Compliance Initiative."

Some of the other aftermarket companies that the EPA has pursued enforcement action against over the last year also specialized in tunes and other products for diesel engines. For selling tunes, largely for heavy-duty diesel engines, Performance Diesel Inc. was ordered to pay a civil penalty of $1.1 million in September; for selling catalytic converter-delete aftermarket exhaust systems, California-based MagnaFlow was ordered to pay a $612,849 penalty in March; and for selling catalytic converter-delete aftermarket exhaust systems, Nevada-based JAMO Performance Exhaust was ordered to pay a $10,000 penalty in August.

In addition, the EPA secured settlements against a number of companies that sold parts for gasoline-engine vehicles over the last year, among them Nevada-based Flowmaster, which paid a $270,000 penalty in March; California-based OBX Racing Sports, which paid a $25,000 penalty in April; California-based Weistec Engineering, which paid an $8,500 penalty in March; and California-based APEX Integration, which paid a $5,000 penalty in August. All were for selling either tunes or catalytic converter-delete exhaust components.

In all, the EPA secured settlements against 42 companies in 2019, more than in any one year over the past decade and a 40-percent increase over 2018. Since 2010, the EPA has secured settlements against 298 companies for Clean Air Act violations involving vehicles and engines.

According to the EPA, its National Compliance Initiative, which "will focus on stopping the manufacture, sale, and installation of defeat devices on vehicles and engines used on public roads as well as on nonroad vehicles and engines," is slated to run from 2020 through 2023, though the August and September enforcement actions listed above were considered part of the initiative.
Wow! As I mentioned above, I had NO idea that was against federal law. How do dealerships get around this?

Yes. It is illegal pretty much everywhere. And it will make it nearly impossible to sell the truck. In my opinion it’s not worth it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Im sure folks who dont know a thing about diesels wont bad an eye once the seller tells the potenial buyer "it's good for more power and engine longevity". It's definately a deal-breaker for me. I get spooky when people put fancy wheels on, and Im 100% Off Cold when I see a truck with a hole in the dash for the 6-way dial, added chips/bigger exhaust, etc.

I have no regrets switching to gas. I went with a power wagon, and while the fuel mileage is pretty bad, the tank size is my biggest complaint. I would look into a gas superduty if i were you. Maybe the new 7.3 motor, maybe a tremor.
That's my biggest dilemma right now. Diesel, gas. Old or "new". It's not a "money thing" as far as being able to afford it; but the way I see it: If Im spending more money on a truck than I did on my first house, it better last a LONG time.

GAS: 10-14mpg (based off of hours of scouring the internet for credible fuel economy reports)
DIESEL: 14-17mpg (my experience with the 6.7 Platinum F250)

GAS: IF the fuel ecenomy was better, I wouldnt mind the abysmal fuel economy. By the numbers, the 6.2L engine has all the power I "need"
DIESEL: all the power in the world, and definitely way more than I "need"

GAS: Lighter (500lbs) than the diesels. Better off road and in snowy conditions (Montana). Buy a whole new engine for less than what a diesel head-job or turbo system costs.
DIESEL: The 6.7 could be one of the best diesel engines ever made. I might be over-thinking this???

Anyways, I thank you all for your assistance. I think Im going to just head to a dealership and see what they have and go from there.

And thanks for not turning this into a Ford-vs-Dodge-vs-GM debate!
 

ramblinChet

Well-known member
I have worked in the industry and have first hand experience with modern diesel engines...and I happily purchased a gas engine.

If you are looking for something long term, a new diesel with Tier IV emissions is the absolute worst choice. And believe me, I wanted a diesel, I had the money sitting around to spend on a diesel, but common sense convinced me otherwise. If you tow 15k+ daily and are looking for a work truck for the next 2-3 years to make money with and you are willing to put up with the associated heartache - a new diesel is the best choice.

The most reliable engines today that are also the easiest to work on are naturally aspirated, port injected, gasoline engines. If it has a turbo or is direct injected I would walk.

FWIW - this is not any sort of attack on fellow members with brand new diesels. I respect your choices and I would expect you to respect mine also. The opinion above is mine and it is based on my personal knowledge while working at a Tier I automotive supplier with some of the most amazing and creative people in the research and development of diesel emissions systems. Just in case you are wondering not a single one of them owns a modern diesel.
 
Last edited:

deserteagle56

Adventurer
If it has a turbo or is direct injected I would walk.
Can't speak to the direct injected part but I don't understand the bias against turbos. I've had several turbo diesels - own a dually with one at present - and have a tractor with a turbo on it and an F150 with twin turbos. None have had a turbo problem, and as a follower of several automotive forums I don't see stories about turbo failures.
 

Pnwfullsize

Active member
Wow! As I mentioned above, I had NO idea that was against federal law. How do dealerships get around this?


Im sure folks who dont know a thing about diesels wont bad an eye once the seller tells the potenial buyer "it's good for more power and engine longevity". It's definately a deal-breaker for me. I get spooky when people put fancy wheels on, and Im 100% Off Cold when I see a truck with a hole in the dash for the 6-way dial, added chips/bigger exhaust, etc.



That's my biggest dilemma right now. Diesel, gas. Old or "new". It's not a "money thing" as far as being able to afford it; but the way I see it: If Im spending more money on a truck than I did on my first house, it better last a LONG time.

GAS: 10-14mpg (based off of hours of scouring the internet for credible fuel economy reports)
DIESEL: 14-17mpg (my experience with the 6.7 Platinum F250)

GAS: IF the fuel ecenomy was better, I wouldnt mind the abysmal fuel economy. By the numbers, the 6.2L engine has all the power I "need"
DIESEL: all the power in the world, and definitely way more than I "need"

GAS: Lighter (500lbs) than the diesels. Better off road and in snowy conditions (Montana). Buy a whole new engine for less than what a diesel head-job or turbo system costs.
DIESEL: The 6.7 could be one of the best diesel engines ever made. I might be over-thinking this???

Anyways, I thank you all for your assistance. I think Im going to just head to a dealership and see what they have and go from there.

And thanks for not turning this into a Ford-vs-Dodge-vs-GM debate!
I totally understand your dilemma. The perfect truck doesnt exist! I will say i have a lot of seat time in a 5.9l cummins, 6.7l cummins, 6.4l hemi, 6.2l superduty, and a 6.7l superduty and even a 3.5l ecoboost. The ecoboost was the most fun to drive, but all of them meet my needs given that i do not tow over 10klbs.
 

Regcabguy

Expedition Leader
I'm surprised we're seeing tuners sold on a lot of sites for the pre-emissions trucks. banks and Edge are 50 state legal but the rest..
 

AbleGuy

A Son of the Purple Sage
GAS: 10-14mpg (based off of hours of scouring the internet for credible fuel economy reports)

GAS: IF the fuel ecenomy was better, I wouldnt mind the abysmal fuel economy. By the numbers, the 6.2L engine has all the power I "need"
FWIW, I have a 2011 F350 with a full body on frame overhead Tiger camper, with the 6.2. We’ve been getting right at about 15 mpg’s on highway cruising, running steadily at about 65 mph.

The most reliable engines today that are also the easiest to work on are naturally aspirated, port injected, gasoline engines. If it has a turbo or is direct injected I would walk.
That’s an interesting comment. I have absolutely no experience with turbo’s (diesel or otherwise) and thus have no knowledge about their reliability, but IIRC, I recently read that the newest Tundra will primarily come with a turbo gasser. So I’m wondering how well that’s going to work out?
 
Last edited:

ramblinChet

Well-known member
I am not against turbo-charged engines when they benefit the consumer but they are just another example of robbing Peter to pay Paul - and the consumers are the ones being robbed, in general. It's all about emissions and meeting goals - plain and simple. Turbo-chargers are very high precision systems compared to most other engine components and thus they are quite fragile and expensive. Most people don't realize that many of them spin from 200,000 to 300,000 RPM and run at temperatures around 2,000° Fahrenheit.

Sure, they add efficiency to an engine and basically provide you with much bang in a smaller package. But it's all about emissions and it comes at a very high price. In summary - for applications in regular vehicles you are paying a premium for a bit more performance and giving up reliability.

And direct injectors fall along the same lines. If you take a look at a conventional automotive fuel injector and compare it to a direct injector there is a massive difference in complexity and cost. Regular injectors just squirt atomized fuel into an intake runner and are pretty much plastic and formed sheet metal save a few tiny machined internal components. Direct injectors must be strong enough to inject fuel directly into the cylinder while under compression and then must endure the high pressures generated during the power stroke. Many machined components using special materials that must not leak under very high pressure. Again, the main benefit are emissions and sure, a small amount of performance but at a very high cost.

Emissions made great leaps forward early on for relatively small costs. If you apply the Pareto Principal then we can conclude 20% of the early efforts in reducing emissions achieved 80% of the gain. We are now struggling for fractions of a percent improvement at enormous costs. It's just not worth it to me for what I require of my vehicle. I'll keep it simple but to each their own.
 

dbhost

Active member
I'm a funny kind of guy. My dream truck doesn't exist, but IF I could piece it together, it would be...

Like new 1999 to 2004 F350 Lariat Dually. Supercab with an 8' bed. Not a fan of the newer front clips.
Built Cummins 6BT P Pump engine.
Allison 6 speed tranny.

My thought process?
The Ford has the best interior, bodywork, chassis, and axles of the similar vintage diesel trucks. I know Dodge and Chevy guiys will disagree, but hey, I am allowed my opions.

I like the 7.3, but long term I honestly just like the P Pump 6BT Cummins better. Although they do sound like someone rattling marbles in an old metal coffee can. The 7.3 wasn't much quieter.

The Newer 6 speed allison is plenty stout, and has plenty of gearing to get you through whatever you want...

So you see it is a best of all 3 worlds.
 
I'm a funny kind of guy. My dream truck doesn't exist, but IF I could piece it together, it would be...

Like new 1999 to 2004 F350 Lariat Dually. Supercab with an 8' bed. Not a fan of the newer front clips.
Built Cummins 6BT P Pump engine.
Allison 6 speed tranny.

My thought process?
The Ford has the best interior, bodywork, chassis, and axles of the similar vintage diesel trucks. I know Dodge and Chevy guiys will disagree, but hey, I am allowed my opions.

I like the 7.3, but long term I honestly just like the P Pump 6BT Cummins better. Although they do sound like someone rattling marbles in an old metal coffee can. The 7.3 wasn't much quieter.

The Newer 6 speed allison is plenty stout, and has plenty of gearing to get you through whatever you want...

So you see it is a best of all 3 worlds.
Allisons are overrated...

But what you want wouldn't be hard to build.
 

Watt maker

Active member
Can't speak to the direct injected part but I don't understand the bias against turbos. I've had several turbo diesels - own a dually with one at present - and have a tractor with a turbo on it and an F150 with twin turbos. None have had a turbo problem, and as a follower of several automotive forums I don't see stories about turbo failures.
I had a 2012 F150 that blew the intercooler apart (bad plastic casting) and caused the driver side turbo to fail at around 2,000 miles. It was our first long trip out of town with it, lol. Before and since that, I’ve replaced failed turbos on 7.3 & 6.0 powerstrokes, 5.9 cummins, and multiple generations of duramaxes. Not super common but turbo failures do happen. The cummins are by far the easiest to replace a turbo on.
 

Watt maker

Active member
I'm a funny kind of guy. My dream truck doesn't exist, but IF I could piece it together, it would be...

Like new 1999 to 2004 F350 Lariat Dually. Supercab with an 8' bed. Not a fan of the newer front clips.
Built Cummins 6BT P Pump engine.
Allison 6 speed tranny.

My thought process?
The Ford has the best interior, bodywork, chassis, and axles of the similar vintage diesel trucks. I know Dodge and Chevy guiys will disagree, but hey, I am allowed my opions.

I like the 7.3, but long term I honestly just like the P Pump 6BT Cummins better. Although they do sound like someone rattling marbles in an old metal coffee can. The 7.3 wasn't much quieter.

The Newer 6 speed allison is plenty stout, and has plenty of gearing to get you through whatever you want...

So you see it is a best of all 3 worlds.
That would be a pretty good truck! The only thing I’d add would be the front Dana super 60 axle from the F450-550 line for that nice and tight turning radius. I’m not sure if I would want the 6-speed Allison or a 6-speed manual behind that cummins.
 

slepe67

Active member
Great discussion points, all around.

As mentioned above, there is no perfect truck. Im just trying to get as close as possible this time around.

FWIW, I have a 2011 F350 with a full body on frame overhead Tiger camper, with the 6.2. We’ve been getting right at about 15 mpg’s on highway cruising, running steadily at about 65 mph.



That’s an interesting comment. I have absolutely no experience with turbo’s (diesel or otherwise) and thus have no knowledge about their reliability, but IIRC, I recently read that the newest Tundra will primarily come with a turbo gasser. So I’m wondering how well that’s going to work out?
You get that kind of mileage LOADED? 2WD or 4WD? For me, 4WD is a must. That said, would be almsot perfect for my needs. I've seen a LOT of internet articles and YouTube videos, with guys stating theyre only getting 10-12.
 

AbleGuy

A Son of the Purple Sage
Great discussion points, all around.

As mentioned above, there is no perfect truck. Im just trying to get as close as possible this time around.



You get that kind of mileage LOADED? 2WD or 4WD? For me, 4WD is a must. That said, would be almsot perfect for my needs. I've seen a LOT of internet articles and YouTube videos, with guys stating theyre only getting 10-12.
My F350 Tiger is a 4wd reg cab, but those hwy miles (fully loaded for 2-3 month trip, full gas and propane tanks, water tank at 1/2) are of course in 2wd. Driving across Texas we’ve gotten as high as 15.9 (per trip computer), driving @ 65 mph. I try not to go faster usually, but on those long open spaces we do hit a cruise of 70-72 for extended periods. In the Rocky Mt. West, on the flatter stretches, we get an average of 13.9 (again per trip computer, which some will of course say is biased).

At any rate, we learned years ago we could not overly focus on gas prices or mpg’s with our rigs...these were just part of the necessary costs of getting out and going where we wanted. This acceptance has come from a slow transition and long learning process though, starting out from younger, poorer days driving a Nissan 4wd Frontier 4 banger, to next a 6 cyl 300 c.I.d. Ford 4wd 1/2 ton, then up to the 5.7, then 6.0, then 62. gasser 4wd heavier trucks and vans.

The worst prices we hit in recent years was $4.99/gl at a stop on a remote northern part of Hwy 395 in NorCal (and that was driving our big old Chevy van with the thirsty 6.0 gasser...11.9 mpg’s was its hwy avg). That was very painful, but we plan accordingly and diligently work to save on other discretionary costs all year while at home in between the trips and adventures we take that sustain us.
 
Last edited:

BajaSurfRig

Active member
FWIW, I have a 2011 F350 with a full body on frame overhead Tiger camper, with the 6.2. We’ve been getting right at about 15 mpg’s on highway cruising, running steadily at about 65 mph.



That’s an interesting comment. I have absolutely no experience with turbo’s (diesel or otherwise) and thus have no knowledge about their reliability, but IIRC, I recently read that the newest Tundra will primarily come with a turbo gasser. So I’m wondering how well that’s going to work out?
What gears and tire size are you running to get 15 mpg in a 6.2 with a camper?
 
Top