Jonathan Hanson
Supporting Sponsor
I do have a biography of Che Guevara. It's next to the biographies of Winston Churchill and Theodore Roosevelt.
Identify Your Enemies - How are Enviro/Eco Groups Funded?
- Thread starter NMC_EXP
- Start date
NMC_EXP
Explorer
Jonathan
The topic of this thread is funding. I've poked around your Conserventures website and am curious about a couple of things. When you personally travel to distant places, are your expenses funded by your 501(c)3? Your Maasai Shield Project caught my eye. I am at a loss on how this helped them. Shields being of no practical use in the Kalashnikov age. Their time and energy would be better spent on merging with the 21st century, not learning skills that went obsolete a century ago. The best perspective I can put on it is well meaning but condescending. Perhaps it was an attempt to costume the folks to better fit the stereotypes of eco-tourists. I suppose that might have some practical benefit.
Maybe it was just a free vacation. That depends on whose pocket the money came out of.
The topic of this thread is funding. I've poked around your Conserventures website and am curious about a couple of things. When you personally travel to distant places, are your expenses funded by your 501(c)3? Your Maasai Shield Project caught my eye. I am at a loss on how this helped them. Shields being of no practical use in the Kalashnikov age. Their time and energy would be better spent on merging with the 21st century, not learning skills that went obsolete a century ago. The best perspective I can put on it is well meaning but condescending. Perhaps it was an attempt to costume the folks to better fit the stereotypes of eco-tourists. I suppose that might have some practical benefit.
Maybe it was just a free vacation. That depends on whose pocket the money came out of.
A
agavelvr
Guest
I'm not sure what that has to do with the theme of the thread. Are we each supposed to disclose our finances in order to participate?
KevinsMap
Adventurer
Opinion Police?
I don't think much of our OP either. Yes, you sir... (but the 3rd person is less "personal", and this is not personal.)
Why? Mostly due to the OP's generous use of paranoia, slander, and just old-fashioned bad manners, regardless of the rights and wrongs of his political opinions. Now, add innuendo, and I find that a most devious and untrustworthy trait; my disapproval makes me fair game too, no?
Shall I post my w-2's to satisfy your curiosity, and your need for dark conspiracy?
Or, perhaps, it would just be simpler if you assume you are the only responsible, adult person in the room with any degree of right on your side... You, and those who share your righteous outrage. It will make you feel good; as I make clear in my earlier post.
I don't think much of our OP either. Yes, you sir... (but the 3rd person is less "personal", and this is not personal.)
Why? Mostly due to the OP's generous use of paranoia, slander, and just old-fashioned bad manners, regardless of the rights and wrongs of his political opinions. Now, add innuendo, and I find that a most devious and untrustworthy trait; my disapproval makes me fair game too, no?
Shall I post my w-2's to satisfy your curiosity, and your need for dark conspiracy?
Or, perhaps, it would just be simpler if you assume you are the only responsible, adult person in the room with any degree of right on your side... You, and those who share your righteous outrage. It will make you feel good; as I make clear in my earlier post.
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Jonathan Hanson
Supporting Sponsor
Nice.
It seems to me you're more suspicious than "curious," hmm?
As it happens, it was the elders of the Olkiramatian Maasai community who approached us with the idea of the shield project. They thought it was important to preserve a vital piece of their history that was in danger of being forgotten. All we did was fund it and record it. The next time we're there I'll give them the benefit of your cultural expertise and let them know you think the project was a waste of time. (Edit: I just remembered—a hard copy of our record is in the library at the Smithsonian Institution. Perhaps I should let them know as well that this was a pointless exercise.)
Roseann and I pay for all our travel and related expenses from our personal funds. We don't use a penny of donated money.
See now why I don't waste much time on these threads?
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NMC_EXP
Explorer
-- That begs the questions of: (1) How did the elders surmise you were a Maasai shield making expert, and (2) How did you come about that expertise?
-- As to funding: (1) Do you and/or your wife receive any compensation/remuneration from ConserVentures, and (2) Is the IRS Form 990 for Conserventure posted on its website?
-- Your time is yours to waste. Participate or ignore - your choice. However, when participating the debate would be better served by not conflating those opposed to wilderness expansion with "conspiracy theorists". That is a cheap tactic intended to silence or distract opposing views.
It does not work with me.
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KevinsMap
Adventurer
Sir; You have shown by your own posts, in your own words, that you are fully addicted to conspiracy theory whenever your point of view is opposed. I have read, and re-read every single one of them this morning. Indeed, I now regard this as the major lesson to be learned from this thread. You are entirely partisan, with no intention of listening - even to those who may be in agreement with some of your points. It is "My way or the Highway" with you.
So. Whether "it does not work" with you is not the issue. Such dire tactics do work for you; you use them consistently.
There are far more reasoned voices supporting your side of this debate. Ones that do not call their fellow Americans, "Enemies". I will listen to them instead.
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Jonathan Hanson
Supporting Sponsor
Let me back up and simplify things so you can understand, since you clearly did not actually read anything about the project with the Maasai, but simply dove into a conspiracy theory regarding it and its funding.
Several elders—that is, older men—in the Olkiramatian community, who were shield carriers and makers in their youth, became concerned that the knowledge they carried about the shield, which has symbolism to the Maasai far beyond its use as a defensive implement, was in danger of being lost. Since they had the expertise to make them, but no means to record the process, and since they were familiar with us and our previous work in the region, they approached us to fund and record a workshop in which they would make two shields from start (live cow) to finish, while engaging a group of young people to help and learn. We agreed, and raised funds for a two-week workshop, including providing food for participants and buying the two cows. We recorded the process on video and in stills, wrote and produced a book, 100 copies of which were distributed to the community, and presented our report as well to the Smithsonian and the Explorers Club. Understand now?
As to your continued conspiracy theories regarding funding: Neither Roseann nor I receive any compensation from the ConserVentures charity. We in fact donate money to it from our business, in addition to collecting money from generous individual and business donations. You can easily confirm this: financial records of 501(c)3 organizations are public records.
Now. I have twice responded civilly to your "curiosity,"—although in truth it was more to satisfy the genuine curiosity of anyone else reading this thread. You, in return, have continued to cast doubts on my honesty and integrity. Two centuries ago such accusations would have been met with a different response. Even 20 years ago, a gentleman would have realized when he'd stepped over the line, and offered an apology. Sadly, we're no longer living in those times. You may continue with your innuendo if you choose; by this point I think most of those reading this realize what the truth is. Since I am a moderator here it's past time for me to step aside—my thanks to those arguing for reason and civility in this thread.
(Everyone else: Here is a photo of us with part of the group. You can see how annoyed they are at us for being so condescending to them.)
This is one of those 'if you can't persuade through discussion, then attack the messenger' moments. If anyone needs to post their bona fides, it would be the people hiding behind pseudonymous forum names.
Let's chill for a moment, OK? It would be unfortunate to close this thread over this.
Let's chill for a moment, OK? It would be unfortunate to close this thread over this.
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agavelvr
Guest
I'm surprised that you folks have let it drag on this long.
KevinsMap
Adventurer
Well, it's a complex issue, isn't it? One with wholly legitimate, citizen-based and grass-roots political interests on all sides. Very large numbers of citizens involved, and many serious problems to solve. Legal problems. Environmental problems. No one is going to get everything they want. No one.
And yes, lots and lots of money, everywhere. But... to use that money as an excuse (or indeed, use any excuse) to deny and denigrate the legitimacy of any interest is as wholly counterproductive as it is just plain foolish. So are Enemies Lists, and vitriol, name-calling and innuendo. That is when it has turned personal... and beyond the pale.
We have seen such foolishness, true, from the very first page and the very title - but we have also seen Reason in this thread on all sides of the issue. This thread has risen above its birthright; it has found legitimacy in the desire for reasonable solutions.
The desire to reach agreement, indeed, the imperative Need to do so; that is all we require to find common ground.
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Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
There is always an almost childlike hope that these diatribes will take a happy turn.....
It's a good thread at the root of it because it showcases the witless divisions between groups.
The most entertaining aspect of these "discussions" is never knowing where I fall within them. To a vast number of people, I'm a gas-burning redneck out to defile Mother Nature. To others, I'm a greenie hippy with a satchel full of granola bars and an Edward Abby book in hand.
Ridiculous.
Jonathan Hanson
Supporting Sponsor
Wouldn't that be something? Just once? Still, I'd rather remain a frequently disappointed optimist.
