Help me understand this

[DaveInDenver]

Yeah, the digital situation is a Charlie Foxtrot. But it's like many things in amateur radio, you just experiment and find your niche. We've been arguing CW or SSB or AM for HF probably since W1AW was still active key.

I wouldn't worry too much, digital modes are still a far, far second to analog FM. If you want digital flexibility it's got to be a Pi-Star, OpenSpot or DVMega hot spot, but to me that's just not really radio. You're using your HT as a cordless mic into a WiFi-connected terminal that is doing the connection.

The point of radio to me is to use RF for a purpose and in the case of a hot spot the WLAN or cell modem is doing the interesting stuff. But I adopted DMR initially because of the DMR-MARC network and being able to link repeaters via IP to create talk groups. It was how the local groups were all going to so it's definitely regional. D-STAR repeaters have been well linked and Fusion can be I think, although I don't know how extensive their network has become. And Brandmeister is making all of this basically a non-factor with gateways to all protocols.

The way D-STAR and Fusion work make more sense from a ham standpoint, since your ID is your call sign. DMR is an abstraction, you're assigned a radio number that is crossed in a common database. The FCC initially didn't allow it on ham bands since it's borderline obscuring your call sign, but they were petitioned and as long as you don't use encryption it's an accept emission type.

BTW, you can link analog repeaters, IRLP and Allstar over the Internet for example and it's always been possible to create wide coverage repeater networks via dedicated RF links. So it's not limited to digital modes.

Honestly the digital protocol isn't the hard part (they are either open standards or at least freely licensed). It's the proprietary AMBE vocoder that everyone has to use.

 

[MOguy]

So what is the answer? As I read through this and think about things I can see the Merit and upgrade but to what?

I've had the same CB radio since 2002 or 2003, couple Max and a handful of antennas. It is has always worked. It would be nice to have more range. At this point we will stagger our good CBs in our group. Are there dual radios that would have CB, and another alternative or would you have to carry multiple radios to keep up with those running old school and those wanting to modernize.

Our communication is basically, "hey at the fork take a left", "did everybody make it over the last obstacle", "hold up I gotta pee" etc. when we run into smaller groups there's more conversation. On occasion a couple people they want to run out ahead to check things out. Those are the situations or having a radio with greater range would be nice. At this point we just kind of stagger ourselves so we can get Communications from the front to the rear.

 

[DaveInDenver]

There are no radios that do CB and anything else. You'd have to carry a second radio, be it GMRS or ham.

I'm a ham as a hobbyist so I'd do it either way. That's how it got started within our circle. There were a handful of us who had ham radios in our trucks and the people on CB would see us talking through repeaters or even simplex FM and asked about it. They were blown away when we'd do HF, that was pretty cool to show. So a few more guys got their license and some upgraded to General. They adopted it as a hobby, too.

It became something we'd use in parallel with the CB on runs and the bulk of the club wanted to join in, so we started teaching classes and eventually offered a couple of test sessions to get most members licensed. Now it's only new members who weren't in the club at the time and a couple of hold-outs who don't use ham.

The bottom line is just use whatever works. None of them are any good if there's no one else on the other end. That's why I'm a ham, to talk to other hams. I have a CB only because it's what people in 4WD circles have used since forever. I don't even keep it permanently mounted, just bring it along on a club run when there's someone coming without ham.

 

[MOguy]

There are no radios that do CB and anything else. You'd have to carry a second radio, be it GMRS or ham.

I'm a ham as a hobbyist so I'd do it either way. That's how it got started within our circle. There were a handful of us who had ham radios in our trucks and the people on CB would see us talking through repeaters or even simplex FM and asked about it. They were blown away when we'd do HF, that was pretty cool to show. So a few more guys got their license and some upgraded to General. They adopted it as a hobby, too.

It became something we'd use in parallel with the CB on runs and the bulk of the club wanted to join in, so we started teaching classes and eventually offered a couple of test sessions to get most members licensed. Now it's only new members who weren't in the club at the time and a couple of hold-outs who don't use ham.

the group I go with basically meets on Facebook, we posted a few dates anyone that can accommodate the most people wins. We don't have meetings or anything like that.

I posted up there and it seems to be split between FRS and GMRS But most have a CB.

What would you pick between FRS and GMRS. The one thing I know I want is it to be mounted and hardwired to the vehicle. I tried the handheld CB thing many many many years ago and it seems if it's not bolted or strap down it's nowhere to be found when I need it And I'm not messing with batteries.

I have no intention of getting licensed but I don't want to operate you legally.

it's just the radio I ran for over 15 years and it's always worked. I'm thinking it might be time 2 modernized.

 

[DaveInDenver]

If you don't want a license then it's FRS. But those are limited to low power, handheld radios with permanently fixed antennas. The range will be similar to CB and probably slightly less most of the time. They are more like nice toy radios.

GMRS makes the most sense, 50 watts, mobile radios are possible, can use external antennas, good sound quality. But you have to pay the FCC $70 for a 10 year license. There's no test to take, though. GMRS radios are generally decent quality (but cost more, too).

If you're starting from zero I'd build around GMRS. You can use FRS radios with GMRS on their shared channels. For example handing an FRS radio to someone who has nothing and everyone with a GMRS radio can talk to him still.

 

[ratkin]

Our communication is basically, "hey at the fork take a left", "did everybody make it over the last obstacle", "hold up I gotta pee" etc. when we run into smaller groups there's more conversation. On occasion a couple people they want to run out ahead to check things out. Those are the situations or having a radio with greater range would be nice. At this point we just kind of stagger ourselves so we can get Communications from the front to the rear.

Everyone getting their ham licenses, getting Kenwood TM-D710GA radios along with the AvMap 6 may be fun for your group.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Is AvMap still making APRS tablets? Seems like with the proliferation of Android tablets + APRSdroid + Mobilink that'll cost about 1/4 as much that their market niche evaporated. That video you linked to is from 2012 and as near as I can tell AvMap isn't carried at HRO and Universal Radio anymore.

 

[ratkin]

Yes & I agree. But I wanted to point towards plug & play stuff before we started down the path of TNCs & Bluetooth GPS pucks!

 

[sonoronos]

In my AO the overwhelming majority of repeaters are FM (as I am sure it is for most that don't live in a major metro).

I live in the Maryland, Washington DC Metro area which is pretty big, and the overwhelming majority of repeaters here are FM as well.

 

[wirenut]

Ham radio can be as simple or complicated as you make it and as expensive as you want to go too. If all you want is a basic voice coms a simple 2 meter rig with a good antenna will be fine. The test really isn't that difficult. My wife passed it on the first try and she knows NOTHING about radio. We use ham radio to communicate when I am working at out-of-the-way places that don't have cell phone coverage.
I don't see any reason to get all worked up about the digital modes. I wouldn't let that guide your decision. It is fun to play with perhaps but I suspect that your trail communication (as well as just generally communication) will be analog. Analog FM works just fine and anybody's analog radio will talk to anybody else's. The advantage of the Yaesu 400 and Kenwood 710, in my opinion, is mainly the APRS ability. Keep in mind that APRS is also analog and has nothing to do with any of the digital modes. If everyone in a group is running one of these radios you can talk to each other on one "side" of the radio and have the other "side" running APRS. Then you can actually see where everyone is and send text messages back and forth if you like. Again, none of what I'm describing involves Yaesu Fusion or any other digital mode.
If you do want to converse on the Fusion digital mode that's fine but not necessary for most people's use. The sound quality in my opinion is more robotic and less desirable than analog, particularly where everyone is close and the signals are strong anyway. The advantage you would have is that the radio encodes your position data in the voice channel so while you are talking the other person see's your distance and direction from them on their radio.
I'm not that familiar with DSTAR but I think it will do basically the same thing as the Fusion system, including putting the distance and direction in the voice signal. BUT, the positional data is NOT compatible with the extensive national system of APRS. For this reason I would steer away from DSTAR, particularly for your use.
Also, keep in mind that ANY radio can be made to work on APRS, it just takes a bit of external hardware called a TNC (Terminal Node Controller) and a GPS receiver connected to the radio. One popular set up uses a TNC called a Mobilinkd that costs about $65. It then communicates with a smart phone or tablet with bluetooth. The phone or tablet's screen, keypad, and GPS are then used for the APRS functions. So, you don't have to buy the fancy $500 radio to have APRS. You can buy one 2 meter rig for voice and a second one for APRS with the TNC. It's just all in how fancy you want to get, how much you want to spend, and how much you like or don't like tinkering with electronics.

 

[Tex68w]

This knowledge leads me to lean towards the Yaesu or Kenwood. Decisions decisions.

 

[BigSwede]

I have had one of each, they are both good. I currently have a Kenwood 281, mainly because the front speaker allowed me to easily mount it in-dash (yes I know you can get remote speakers etc.).

 

[axlesandantennas]

I have no clue what I need in a mobile based radio, but we have some big trips planned next year and I'd like to get a nice setup that allows me to communicate with others in the group while on the go and as a backup to phones and the Garmin inReach. Icom, Kenwood, Yaesu, GMRS, DMR, APRS, UHF/VHF, Digital, GPS, my head is spinning. I've been looking at Icom-5100's, Yaesu FTM-400's and Kenwood D-700's, but I have no idea which is best for my needs/area (if any of these are) and why.

I am aware that I need to get a license (also need guidance there, I'm local to Houston) and I am all for it, but help simplify this process for me as I want to buy once/cry once here and be done with it. I'm not looking to blow $1K+ but I also don't mind spending a little if it means quality and reliability with no need to upgrade a few years down the road. In other words, I'd like something I could grow into and not feel like I need more as I learn and grow with this.


Any guidance, suggestions, or a Reader's Digest breakdown here would be much appreciated.

Here is a small starting point.
https://axlesandantennas.com/pages/types-of-radios

Read though that and then I will send you something a bit better to really get you started.

 

[Tex68w]

Here is a small starting point.
https://axlesandantennas.com/pages/types-of-radios

Read though that and then I will send you something a bit better to really get you started.

Done, send me more!

 

[axlesandantennas]

Done, send me more!

It's not published yet, but if you send me an email at info@axlesandantennas.com I'll send you a rough draft. Hint: it's a book for mobile commuincation I am writing for overlanders. It covers all radios, not just ham radio or cb.