Help me figure out my house battery system...

[HoboJen]

Does that wirenut have black going into it AND those three reds?
If so, then your diagram must be wrong.

It looks to me like the black feeds to the switch, then to the wirenut, then to the three fuses - which then feed out to the lights, etc.
So the switch kills power to the fuses.
In which case, the switch gets power from + not from - as in your diagram.
Which is fine, except for the wrong colors being used (and the horrible workmanship).
Wrong color is also happening at the solenoid, where one battery + is black, and the other red.

No, it's just the picture, the black wire disappears into the battery box behind the wire nut. fairly sure the diagram is right. and yeah, the black wire at the solenoid threw me off at first.

You don't need to test resistance at this stage - just voltage and/or continuity.


Your test 1 shows a problem.
If the ignition is turned off, then there should be NO voltage at the skinny wire where it meets the solenoid.
In the photo, it appears to be wired directly to the battery + terminal of the alternator.
That would be the same as wiring it straight to the + on the engine battery.
And that is WRONG.
Wired that way, the solenoid is engaged and tying the engine and house batteries into a bank FULL TIME. (And the solenoid is drawing a bit of power out of both batteries 24/7.)<*>

This is further indicated by test 2 (engine running).
The batteries are at 13.7v, but the skinny wire feeding the solenoid is getting power directly from the alternator at 14.3v.


<*>I think I see what's happening there - whoever did it, didn't understand how it works.
I think they thought it was like a diode isolator (the ones with the heat sink you can buy at the auto parts store).
With a diode type, you run the charging wire to the center terminal of the diode isolator, and then run one wire out to each battery.
Which looks like what they did on your truck.
BUT
Yours is a solenoid type called a "split-charge relay" and doesn't work the same way as a diode type at all.

Thanks! most of this makes sense and i think it explains the problem i'm having - draining the starter without even knowing why.

The skinny wire activating the solenoid should normally be wired so that it only has power when the ignition switch is on.
Disconnect it from the alternator ASAP and hook it to an ignition circuit.

So this makes sense too... in theory. i'm just not sure how best to get in there to the alternator and also not sure where ignition circuits are... Doesn't sound like a hard thing to look up and figure out.

 

[DiploStrat]

...

Your test 1 shows a problem.
If the ignition is turned off, then there should be NO voltage at the skinny wire where it meets the solenoid.
In the photo, it appears to be wired directly to the battery + terminal of the alternator.
That would be the same as wiring it straight to the + on the engine battery.
And that is WRONG.
Wired that way, the solenoid is engaged and tying the engine and house batteries into a bank FULL TIME. (And the solenoid is drawing a bit of power out of both batteries 24/7.)<*>

...

<*>I think I see what's happening there - whoever did it, didn't understand how it works.
I think they thought it was like a diode isolator (the ones with the heat sink you can buy at the auto parts store).
With a diode type, you run the charging wire to the center terminal of the diode isolator, and then run one wire out to each battery.
Which looks like what they did on your truck.
BUT
Yours is a solenoid type called a "split-charge relay" and doesn't work the same way as a diode type at all.



The skinny wire activating the solenoid should normally be wired so that it only has power when the ignition switch is on.
Disconnect it from the alternator ASAP and hook it to an ignition circuit.

I agree with my colleague dwh entirely. I thought at first that perhaps they had wired the control wire for the solenoid to some part of the alternator's voltage regulator (clever, but stupid) but, from the readings you are getting, it sounds like they were merely stupid.

Free advice (worth more than you pay for it):

-- Disconnect EVERYTHING.

-- Starting at the positive terminal of the starter battery, reconnect one wire at a time, cleaning each so that there is no dirt or corrosion, checking that all crimps or solder joints are mechanically and electrically tight, insulating as required.

-- Circuits between two batteries are live at both ends and unless they are REAL short, call it under ten feet and all under the hood, should be fused at each end. Especially if they cover any distance under the vehicle, through firewalls, etc. One of the easiest ways to add a fuse to a battery to battery circuit is with a terminal fuse: http://www.bluesea.com/products/5191/MRBF_Terminal_Fuse_Block_-_30_to_300A

-- Label (and diagram) everything you do. If you use a black wire on a hot (positive) circuit, wrap the end with red tape. Better yet, simply replace it with the right color wire.

-- Route the control wire for your solenoid to a fuse block under the hood or under the dash. Connect it to a point that is live only when the engine is running (not starting or in accessory mode.) Shop manual will give you the options.

That done, you should at least have the basic connection/disconnection of your two batteries done.

Then you can:

-- Make sure that your second battery is properly secured and vented. (Looking at everything else, I would not put money on it.)

-- Clean up all of your house/camper wiring - inverter, lights, etc.

Only when you have done this and are sure that it all works as you expect, should you begin to worry about solar, etc.

Get a good book and some good tools.

Remember, it is not hard, only complex, so get it right, one step at a time.

Good luck!

 

[HoboJen]

you guys are awesome! i can't thank this forum enough for all the advice and info I've gotten here.

Thanks guys! And i'm sure i'll have more questions as I go....

The first question I have though, for disconnecting everything, is there an order i need to follow so that i don't shock myself or start a fire?

... time to visit the library...

 

[dwh]

Disconnect the hot wires from the batteries. That kills all power to everything while you work on it.

 

[lcsodiver]

Start with the batteries first..... Disconnect the negative FIRST! Then the Positive. Here is the reason.... If your wrench hits the frame while it is loosening the negative terminal nothing bad happens. But if you do the positive first and your wrench hits the frame it shorts the battery out. After you remove the Negative you can bounce the wrench all you want between the positive and anything but the negative terminal and nothing will happen.

 

[lcsodiver]

Oh and if you are not removing the batteries from the vehicle cover the terminals with something non-conductive so you don't accidentally short them.

 

[HoboJen]

so the first thing i want to disconnect (after disconnecting the batteries), is the control wire from the solenoid to the alternator. The problem i'm having is getting to the wiring on the alternator.

i can't see what i'm doing if i try to go in through the hood. there is a hole from the bottom of the car where i can see what's going on but it is too far away if i try to reach up to it while i'm laying under the car. I might have a better chance to get in there if i jack up the van. i'm wondering what's behind this thing below and maybe that's an option? what's the best way to get to this? i know you remove some stuff if you're trying to change the alternator, but i'd like to avoid doing that.

it's all the way down there!

can i get in this way?

going to have to replace the positive wire from starter to solenoid. Zip ties? yay or nay? what else if not zip ties?

think i might replace this end too:

i did find the power control box and the interior fuse panel, and a big mess where that is. I was thinking of wiring to the radio fuse in the interior box, is that a good choice and how important is the corresponding fuse amp rating? Would something in the power control box be a better choice? I still need to learn how to wire to a fuse in the box but haven't found the right info yet... if you know a good link to learn that from, let me know...

what a mess... specifically those pieces just hanging down:

my favorite is this stripped purple wire just hanging out:

here's a list of fuses in my interior panel:

1 20A 4WABS module
2 15A Brake warning lamp, Instrument
cluster, Warning chime, 4WABS
relay, Warning indicators, Low
vacuum warning switch (Diesel
only)
3 15A Main light switch, RKE module,
Radio, Instrument illumination,
E-Traveler VCP and video
screens, Overhead console
4 15A Power locks w/RKE, Illuminated
entry, Warning chime, Modified
vehicle, Main light switch,
Courtesy lamps
5 20A RKE module, Power lock
switches, Memory lock, Power
locks with RKE
6 10A Brake shift interlock, Speed
control, DRL module
7 10A Multi-function switch, Turn signals
8 30A Radio capacitor(s), Ignition coil,
PCM diode, PCM power relay,
Fuel heater (Diesel only), Glow
plug relay (Diesel only)
9 30A Wiper control module, Windshield
wiper motor
10 20A Main light switch, Park lamps,
License lamp (external lamps),
Multi-function switch
(flash-to-pass)
11 15A Brake pressure switch,
Multi-function switch (hazards),
Brake lamp switch, Brake lamps
12 15A Transmission Range (TR) sensor,
Backup lamps, Auxiliary battery
relay
13 15A Blend door actuator, A/C heater,
Function selector switch
14 5A Instrument cluster (air bag and
charge indicator)
15 5A Trailer battery charge relay
16 30A Power seats
17 &#8212; Not used
18 &#8212; Not used
19 10A Air bag diagnostic monitor
20 5A Overdrive cancel switch
21 30A Power windows*
22 15A Memory power radio, E-Traveler
radio, E-Traveler console
23 20A Cigar lighter, Data Link Connector
(DLC)
24 &#8212; Not used
25 10A Left headlamp (low beam)
26 &#8212; Not used
27 5A Radio
28 20A Power plug
29 &#8212; Not used
30 15A Headlamps (high beam indicator),
DRL10A
31 10A Right Headlamp (Low Beam),
DRL
32 5A Power mirrors
33 20A E-Traveler power point #2
34 10A Transmission Range (TR) sensor
35 30A RKE module
36 5A (Cluster, A/C, Illumination,
Radio), Steering column assembly
37 20A Rear power point
38 10A Air bag diagnostic monitor
39 20A E-Traveler power point #1
40 30A Modified vehicle
41 30A Modified vehicle
42 &#8212; Not used
43 20A C.B. Power windows*
44 &#8212; Not used


I'm planning to pick up a battery load tester today and order a trimetric meter. I'm considering starting by disconnecting the house system entirely from the starter, and disconnecting the solenoid too. Then I can charge with my inverter before i go away for a weekend and have enough power for a weekend (i'm so itching to get away for a few days). But on the other hand i have some things keeping me here (like finding a new housemate), so I may just try to get it all done (disconnect everything, cleaning, and rewiring) before i go anywhere.

but step one, getting to that alternator!

 

[HoboJen]

So I called my dad for help with the specifics, and while he knows how to do this stuff, he said to just take it to my mechanic since it's such a simple wiring change... for them.

So I did, and my mechanic didn't charge me anything, so good call there, right?

I came home and did another multimeter test. The control wire into the solenoid is now running at about 2 volts when the van is running and 0 when it's not. Is the 2V good or should it be higher than that? it is still hooked up to the alternator, just spliced into a different place on there that's only hot when the van is running. I know you guys said it should be wire to a fuse box, but this guy wanted to connect to a different spot on the alternator. is that alright?

I also discovered there was nothing coming from the starter battery, what? looking around i found this:

so that explains that. so do i need to get a new metal connector? can i work with that one? i'm about to go disconnect everything so I'll probably answer my own question, but if you have any suggestions I would love to hear them.


they also did a battery load test for me and the batteries are strong.

 

[HoboJen]

got the connector off. totally understand that i need to get a replacement. i'm not sure how to go about crimping it since i don't have too many tools.

 

[Herbie]

You probably need to go an auto-parts place and see if they have some sort of bolt-clamp adapter that will work for two wires. See how the intact terminal clamps over the wire instead of crimping? You kind of need that, except that you have to make it work for both cables. I don't think trying to sandwich both into a single terminal is safe. The other possibility is some sort of adapter to let you use side-post terminals, since I know there are adapters to stack two side-post terminals together, but now you're into adapter-on-adapter action, which only works in Vegas.

The problem is that the cable is in the vehicle. If you need to continue using a crimp-type terminal, you may have to take it to somebody who has a big crimper to have it done. The manual kind look like bolt cutters but crimp instead. There's a handheld hydraulic kind too that runs off air pressure.

At home you can do it with a vise, or by putting a beefy screwdriver or similar on the connector and hitting it with a hammer, but that's tough to do without something to hit against...

EDIT: Oreilly's lists a couple of terminals like this: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BWD0/BH309/N0365.oap as a "3-way terminal", but that seems sketchy if the wire gauges don't all match, since I think it'd be hard to get everything clamped tight...

The other option is to look for crimp terminals like in the picture for this product: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SS01/08508/N0365.oap
You don't necessarily need the quick-clamp part of it, but see how the terminals have "wings", instead of the one-piece crimp barrel? You will possibly be able to fold those wings over tightly and get a good crimp using something like a set of channel-lock pliers, instead of needing a massive crimp tool.

 

[HoboJen]

Thanks Herbie, I like the last option. The picture doesn't show it, but the terminal needs replaced anyway as it is highly corroded just at the part you can't see in the photo. and well, the whole wire needs replaced too. but i just want to get out of town for a week!

I'll look for something like that when I go to O'Reilly's tomorrow.

 

[Herbie]

One other option is something like this: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SS01/08864/N2636.oap

I haven't used them, but it appears from other pictures that the large ends are basically a socket that you push the stripped cable into then secure with a set-screw. Not necessarily the best way to handle it, but would also solve your issue, I think.

 

[HoboJen]

well i have been to 4 stores already and can't even find a 1 gauge lug (the first guy i talked to preferred the lug attached to the terminal over anything else they had in store). but i don't think i can crimp that myself anyway... i called another store that does have one but they said they could only crimp it for me if it was out of the vehicle, but i'm trying to avoid that. i plan to replace the wire but i'm really trying to get out of here for a week first.

O'Reilly did have the quick clamp, but I don't think that's going to work for the 1 gauge wire. Same thing with the cable splice one, my wire is too fat. I think the 3 way terminal might be the only quick fix for now.

 

[Joe917]

Getting properly attached lugs is important and I found surprisingly difficult as well. Most garages around here use "bolt on" type connectors. I eventually bought a quality set of crimpers and quality lugs and did it myself. It was cost effective for me as I was building a 4 battery bank with inverter, battery to battery charger and 630 watts solar.
This site is full of excellent info on proper wiring procedures: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables
Another option if you only need a few cables is order them pre-built online. http://www.custombatterycables.com/ I have no knowledge of the quality of this service.

 

[HoboJen]

well, that problem is solved. but as i solve problems new ones appear.

so here is the solution, a new terminal with both wires connected via lugs. i found a specialty battery shop that had the lugs and terminals and manual crimpers they could use at the car. $12 and they did everything.

here are the new issues:
- control wire is running at 2v when the van is running. is that too low?
- battery light now on... no idea what happened there.
- i don't think the house battery is charging.

here are my before and after readings:

BEFORE:
cold:
fat to starter battery - 12.4
skinny - 12.5
fat to house 12.2

running:
fat to starter bat - 14.1
skinny - 14.4
fat to house - 12.2

AFTER (solenoid control wire moved to a different spot on the alternator so it's only hot while running, and the battery terminal and lugs replaced)
not running:
fat to starter bat - 12.74
skinny - 0
fat to house - 12

running:
fat to starter bat - 14.3
skinny - 2
fat to house - 12.01
(the house battery by itself is at 12.02 when the engine is running)

Any ideas on the new problems? The guy that did the battery terminal also thought there was a small draw on the starter battery when the van is off... which might have been the original problem.