Hallmark or Outfitter - help me decide!

Kmehr

Adventurer
Finally has come time to move on from our beloved Jayco sportster 7 and upgrade to something bigger and newer. Have a young son and another on the way, so main thing we’re after is more/better sleeping space. Where narrowed it down to either an Outfitter or Hallmark. Want some experience feedback on those.

So far the non-negotiable are: north/south bed, outside shower, solar, a third bed in addition to the cab over and dinette (ie the tent room of the Juno or a pull out bunk over the dinette).

We’re specifically looking at Apex/Juno/8ft Caribou or the Hallmark Guanella.

Main questions are:

1) is the wet bath worth it?

Currently our jayco doesn’t have a permanent stove as we usually cook outside or set the Coleman on the counter. We don’t have a water tank either and just use some reliance water jugs. Both of these work fine and I honestly imagine we will continue to largely cook outside and having the water jugs on the camp table will continue. All that to say a wet bath would be a huge upgrade for us. Definitely want the outside shower, but not sold on the toilet or inside shower.

On one hand, the shower and toilet would be nice for the late season elk hunts my dad and I do here in colorado and we could start using the camper instead of renting a cabin every year.

On the other, do the toilets stink? I grew up on a houseboat and the holding tanks always smelled. It was a constant battle keeping the poo stink down.

I imagine that snagging either an Apex or Juno without the wet bath would bring weight down a few hundred pounds, which is appealing.

2) is hallmark worth the price? It looks like $10-15l more for a comparable Hallmark. The construction seems very similar, so what sets Hallmark that much higher? Either are in my budget, but still, $15k is $15k…

3) can the weight of the significantly heavier Juno/apex really be “felt” on a 2500 cummins?

Previous truck was an 05 cummins 2500, and recently upgraded to a 22 cummins 2500. My jayco only weighs about 1,400lbs but the new truck handles it much better stock than my 05 did with full Thuren kit and Timbrens.

I have no issue using the Timbrens again or even airbags, and certainly don’t want to start a GVWR debate, just want to know how the heavier ones “feel”. Not going to take it on trails at Moab, but we do hit the forest service roads frequently.

Thanks in advance!


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Kmehr

Adventurer

Considered north stars, my neighbor has a nice one. My wife wasn’t a big fan though. Plus being local to hallmark and outfitter we’d like to go new and get exactly what we want. Finally I’m sold on the composite structure of those two. My jayco is stick and tin like the north star appears to be and I gutted it when I bought it because of all the rot. I was not impressed at all with the construction (that being said it’s holding up just fine).


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ripperj

Explorer
If I had the funds I’d go composite too, but just fyi, Northstar’s are made with better materials and the construction is top notch… but at the end of the day it’s a wood framed camper that needs to be kept up. Even a composite camper can turn into a moldy mess if you let the seals go.


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As someone with a hallmark cuchara, and 3 kids (6,9,13) there are some things we have identified as great features for us that others may not get.

We are in CO and use the camper year-round with adjustments made for winter.

1. The wet bath is worth it, at least for us. My wife absolutely wanted it but I wasnt 100% onboard. Random moments when the kid has to "go potty" are zero stress. Summer it has water, winter we use RV antifreeze. Especially with littles that are potty training it keeps some consistency. The shower has come in handy when the youngest had accidents or when the girls needed to rinse off after being in the lake. We dont take full showers indoors but it is handy. It is also a great spot to hang wet clothes inside (ski pants, swimming suits, etc).

We empty the toilet after every trip (usually 2-5 nights) and put the toilet pods in it to keep it from stinking.

2. Indoor cooking: We do most cooking outdoors but there is something nice about having a cooktop always setup/available. Being able to get out of bed and start the coffee or oatmeal water without going outside (ahem, getting dressed) is definitely a luxury but again 100% worth it to me. We have also been known to bring the premade cookie dough on ski trips and make a small pan of cookies in the oven at the resort parking lot. Again, luxury but with little kids it helps. The Mrs also like having accessible hot water for dishes.

3. Weight: we bought a new F350 to haul the cuchara. I did put torklift helpers on the back but only to help level. We have the 7.3l gas and have no issues with it feeling overwhelmed. I am sure a Cummins wouldn't have issues. The truck obviously behaves as it has 2000+ pounds in the bed so it isnt a sports car but I am also driving a giant truck to begin with. The additional weight may be noticeable with a little more sway or rock.

Hallmark vs Outfitter: I would say to look at each and visit them since you are local. The construction both seem quite similar with composite walls, one piece roof, and similar interior buildout.
We were buying used so that narrowed the field quite a bit as hallmark has a bit more on the used market. However, some things I noticed:
Outfitter has a little bit higher sidewalls so you can use the toilet with the roof down. Outfitter generally has a basement that can be heated so it may be more 4 season friendly. These 2 things impact driving. It is a little taller overall (about 6-7 inches) so it may impact wind resistance. They claim their basement helps to lower the center of gravity slightly since the water is in the basement. I like the tanks being in a conditioned space. Even though I would run dry in the winter it makes dumping the black tank easier after the trip as the CO winter wind chill doesnt impact the tank freezing on the way home.

The bunk bed is probably one of the main differences for everyday use. Our bunk is decently wide so our 2 littles can both sleep on it. I am not sure how it compares specifically sizewise to outfitter. We store it either under the upper bed or along the dinner wall when not in use. While I feel this bed has a little bit larger sleep area than outfitter it can be a little unwieldy moving it around versus just having the pull out drawer like outfitter. If/when we dont need the bunk it can just stay home. The outfitter always has that drawer. Now you can remove the mattress from the drawer and have a great pullout storage to access items if your partner is still sleeping on the top bunk, which hallmark does not have.

All that said if I was buying brand new it probably would have been the outfitter apex 9.5 unless I saw something at the factory tour that turned me off. I have had great experiences with hallmark customer service but I just can justify the 15k surcharge for a hallark new and the apex has a few things that I like:
1. Bathroom use with roof down
2. Interior tanks (also a larger fresh water 44 gal vs 30 gal)
3. Ability to have 4 batteries vs 2 on hallmark
4. N/S bed standard (with 2 more inches of headroom)
5. Generator storage compartment (or use for firewood or other items)
 

Kmehr

Adventurer
As someone with a hallmark cuchara, and 3 kids (6,9,13) there are some things we have identified as great features for us that others may not get.

We are in CO and use the camper year-round with adjustments made for winter.

1. The wet bath is worth it, at least for us. My wife absolutely wanted it but I wasnt 100% onboard. Random moments when the kid has to "go potty" are zero stress. Summer it has water, winter we use RV antifreeze. Especially with littles that are potty training it keeps some consistency. The shower has come in handy when the youngest had accidents or when the girls needed to rinse off after being in the lake. We dont take full showers indoors but it is handy. It is also a great spot to hang wet clothes inside (ski pants, swimming suits, etc).

We empty the toilet after every trip (usually 2-5 nights) and put the toilet pods in it to keep it from stinking.

2. Indoor cooking: We do most cooking outdoors but there is something nice about having a cooktop always setup/available. Being able to get out of bed and start the coffee or oatmeal water without going outside (ahem, getting dressed) is definitely a luxury but again 100% worth it to me. We have also been known to bring the premade cookie dough on ski trips and make a small pan of cookies in the oven at the resort parking lot. Again, luxury but with little kids it helps. The Mrs also like having accessible hot water for dishes.

3. Weight: we bought a new F350 to haul the cuchara. I did put torklift helpers on the back but only to help level. We have the 7.3l gas and have no issues with it feeling overwhelmed. I am sure a Cummins wouldn't have issues. The truck obviously behaves as it has 2000+ pounds in the bed so it isnt a sports car but I am also driving a giant truck to begin with. The additional weight may be noticeable with a little more sway or rock.

Hallmark vs Outfitter: I would say to look at each and visit them since you are local. The construction both seem quite similar with composite walls, one piece roof, and similar interior buildout.
We were buying used so that narrowed the field quite a bit as hallmark has a bit more on the used market. However, some things I noticed:
Outfitter has a little bit higher sidewalls so you can use the toilet with the roof down. Outfitter generally has a basement that can be heated so it may be more 4 season friendly. These 2 things impact driving. It is a little taller overall (about 6-7 inches) so it may impact wind resistance. They claim their basement helps to lower the center of gravity slightly since the water is in the basement. I like the tanks being in a conditioned space. Even though I would run dry in the winter it makes dumping the black tank easier after the trip as the CO winter wind chill doesnt impact the tank freezing on the way home.

The bunk bed is probably one of the main differences for everyday use. Our bunk is decently wide so our 2 littles can both sleep on it. I am not sure how it compares specifically sizewise to outfitter. We store it either under the upper bed or along the dinner wall when not in use. While I feel this bed has a little bit larger sleep area than outfitter it can be a little unwieldy moving it around versus just having the pull out drawer like outfitter. If/when we dont need the bunk it can just stay home. The outfitter always has that drawer. Now you can remove the mattress from the drawer and have a great pullout storage to access items if your partner is still sleeping on the top bunk, which hallmark does not have.

All that said if I was buying brand new it probably would have been the outfitter apex 9.5 unless I saw something at the factory tour that turned me off. I have had great experiences with hallmark customer service but I just can justify the 15k surcharge for a hallark new and the apex has a few things that I like:
1. Bathroom use with roof down
2. Interior tanks (also a larger fresh water 44 gal vs 30 gal)
3. Ability to have 4 batteries vs 2 on hallmark
4. N/S bed standard (with 2 more inches of headroom)
5. Generator storage compartment (or use for firewood or other items)

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for!

I’m really leaning towards the Outfitter Juno. I finally weighed my camper today and it’s actually 1,725lbs so what’s another 700lbs? Haha. I think I’m going to get up to tour them next week.


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Porkchopexpress

Well-known member
I have the Apex on an F350 single rear wheel. A wet bath was necessary for my wife. I feel cramped in it, (I'm 6'4" and over 200 lbs) and I'm less picky about creature comforts. In other words, I think the worth of a wet bath is personal. I can feel the weight under certain conditions like aggressive braking or poorly maintained roads with high speed limits. Not so much the potholes but the roads that have almost a wavy effect.
The quality of my apex is top notch so I can't imagine you will see much improvement paying more for a Hallmark. I honestly think it's just the brand recognition that earns a premium.
I optioned the cassette toilet. It doesn't smell for us but we only use it for liquid waste, empty it pretty regularly and rinse it every so often on a trip.

If you want a link to a Google photo album with my camper I will PM it to you, (I'm paranoid about putting my info out on the public side).

Also, Outfitter added a few customizations the I asked for at little to no upcharge. I asked for Hickory cabinets and was basically charged the price difference in wood.
 

Kmehr

Adventurer
I toured Outfitter today and was really impressed. I'm sold and will be placing my order as soon as I decide which model. Their main guy Ethan was really pushing me between the Caribou 8 and Apex 8. Once he showed me how it worked, I really liked the cassette toilet design. The holding tank business doesn't sound like something im interested in, and a shower/toilet delete would only save about 100 lbs apparently. The next build slot for the bigger models is next spring vs Hallmark was 18months out and at least $10k more on everything, minimum, so they're out of the picture for me.

@prokchopexpress I'd love photos of your camper! I promise not to post them up.
 

Buckstopper

Adventurer
Hallmarks are very well built. I am on my second Hallmark after the first one was totaled out by a hit and run driver that hit the right rear jack traveling from the front towards the back at a 45 degree angle. Even with significant damage we were able to put a several thousand miles on it to get from Arizona to Oregon that then to Colorado camping all the way. i think that if any other camper was hit that way it would have torn the whole back of the camper off. Moral of that story is don't travel with your jacks on...

As for wet baths, having one was non-negotiable with my wife and frankly the older I get the more a appreciate having it as well. We have a cassette toilet and that is a whole lot easier to empty then the traditional RV black tank. Ours has a shower but I prefer to take a shower outside with a shower tent set up beside the truck so I can use water from the camper.
 

Skinhyfish

Observer
Hallmark all day long.. .best customer service and way more superior product. Will have way better resale also. Go tyalk to matt or Andy. Guys have been amazing. Look at the workshops.
 

ripperj

Explorer
Hallmark all day long.. .best customer service and way more superior product. Will have way better resale also. Go tyalk to matt or Andy. Guys have been amazing. Look at the workshops.

I pretty sure post #10 makes your reply a bit useless for the OP :)


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DirtWhiskey

Western Dirt Rat
Hallmark all day long.. .best customer service and way more superior product. Will have way better resale also. Go tyalk to matt or Andy. Guys have been amazing. Look at the workshops.

Hallmark makes great campers for sure. Really like their flatbed models and considered going that route, only hitch was the lack of rear dinette.. I'll say resale is hard to point to. Outfitters, especially Junos are UNICORNS. I gave up after two year of looking. Lots of space, and full heated basement. Only hesitation was the old school lifting mechanism, easily dealt with with electric lift.
 

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