Grenadier Pricing Announced

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
We have entered in the phase of complex complexity. Everything is getting too complicated and every solution we come up with to solve a problem caused but the said complexity makes it even more complicated. It’s a paradox.

There is a guy down on the road where I live. He buys old tractors. Some of them are quite old. He restores them and then sells them. He told the modern equipment is so complicated that no farmer can fix it by himself.

That is an important issue. The “Right to Repair” is plaguing farmers now for sure, and it’s been creeping in for years. In the motorcycle world, thank goodness for GS911 - otherwise, folks would have to shell out thousands of dollars on software just to maintain their BMW adventure bikes (if they could even get the software). And lots of Automotive companies won’t even sell you the proper shop manual for the vehicles they sell - that’s a dealer part only.

The Gren was supposed to buck that trend a bit — CAD-based service manuals that walk you through component replacement in 3D, and a real “fix it anywhere with basic tools” approach. It looks like they’ve done an admirable job in the design but the pudding has yet to be eaten so I won’t say they succeeded yet. But if they do, that then becomes an additional point of value to the Gren — a $110k car you can fix in your garage is quickly better value than a $90k car that requires you to spend $200 for a dealer-approved oil change or $1000 for a transmission fluid flush and who knows how much more when something big goes wrong.
 
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Christian P.

Expedition Leader
Staff member
That is an important issue. The “Right to Repair” is plaguing farmers now for sure, and it’s been creeping in for years. In the motorcycle world, thank goodness for GS911 - otherwise, folks would have to shell out thousands of dollars on software just to maintain their BMW adventure bikes (if they could even get the software). And lots of Automotive companies won’t even sell you the proper shop manual for the vehicles they sell - that’s a dealer part only.

The Gren was supposed to buck that trend a bit — CAD-based service manuals that walk you through component replacement in 3D, and a real “fix it anywhere with basic tools” approach. It looks like they’ve done an admirable job in the design but the pudding has yet to be eaten so I won’t say they succeeded yet. But if they do, that then becomes an additional point of value to the Gren — a $110k car you can fix in your garage is quickly better value than a $90k car that requires you to spend $200 for a dealer-approved oil change or $1000 for a transmission fluid flush and who knows how much more when something big goes wrong.

I did not know about GS911. We ride Super Tenere so no need to carry a computer with us...

:)
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
The Expedition Portal article stating that these are a value, is foolishness. The only vehicle close to this that it's compared to is the LC200 Heritage and the fit, finish and materials are a world apart.

If this truck were being built to any sort of scale with any large company where tooling and components were written off over a multitude of platforms, my $93xxx build would be $63xxx easy. It's an updated economy '96 G320 gasser. Thats it. I bet right down to a 2" lift screwing up what castor there is, and giving you recirculating ball death wobble if any of the multiple short radius control arms or hubs have any wear or play at all.

What are we paying for? Well, everything like it is 30 years old. Old Defenders are junk. Awesome to own at $30,000, but there's nothing any custom builder can do to it to make it actually worth $100,000 bucks. It really is just lipstick on a pig. An FJ80 is nice if it isn't roached out.

In reality, the best "buy" in this category right now is a used 2016 G550. It's pretty much depreciated, doesn't have the craptastic Cclass interior they screwed you with in the older 463's, and has a modern drivetrain... worlds ahead of the BMW in the Grenadier. Swap a few parts, and you get the utility and the luxury and save $30,000. There's just that "out of warranty" Mercedes landmine, that if you don't have the appropriate stomach to tread over, don't walk thru the field.

I'm not counting out the Grenadier though... that build I put together is sexy and I think I'd get my money back in a few years. There where the dice through lies. I have a few weeks to think about it.
 

Todd n Natalie

OverCamper
And as a Triumph guy, I’m OBDII compatible so a $20 dongle does the job. We can go riding together and cast sympathetic glances to the GS guys from behind our muddy goggles though :D
I did not know about GS911. We ride Super Tenere so no need to carry a computer with us...

:)
And as a VStrom guy, I can join in on the sympathetic glances as well.
That being said... Those GS' are pretty nice.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I hate to say it - but this is pretty much in-line with what I've been saying for the last year +.....no way this was coming in any cheaper, it's pretty much right where I thought it would be....

Just wait till people start tacking on ADM, I bet you see these for $120k+ for the first year second hand.....it's probably a good investment for somebody looking to flip one for an easy $20-30k if not more. This is less volume and a much more of a bougie high end rig (regardless of it's intended purpose) than the Bronco's were and look what they were selling for.

Anybody wanna transfer their order to me? I have the ad written for Sun Valley craigslist already :)
 

nickw

Adventurer
this ^^^^ is so true

I have a goal, I still use the paper version of Backroads Map Books, I drive a TJR because it is the last "unconnected" overlander.... on my third....

My next overlander will have a carburetor... There is nothing built in the past 15 years that interests me.

View attachment 779098

I'm liking this idea for a gas gauge.

View attachment 779099
Amen!

There is a great YT channel of a guy that restores old tractors - back when stuff was built to last and still works 80+ years later. The majority of his work is replacing gaskets, bearings, bushing, etc....all wear parts, the gears, superstructure and in a lot of cases the engines are still in good operating order, good enough to run and good enough to continue to work if he can source some basic parts, which is is usually able to do.

I think there is room in the market for a rig like that - like a kit car, use simply sourced axles, carbed SB350, manual trans, manual steering, etc.

I'm actually surprised nobody has done that with small tractors - may be an EPA / Emission thing.
 

Maddmatt

Explorer
Here's what I put up on the other forum; a best "dead reckoning" price comparison.

Here's the assumptions on my analysis:

1) I built the cars from regional websites by "pretending" I was a customer in the United States, Canada, the U.K., Australia, and South Africa. My build was based on the "tool to do a job" analogy, which means in every case I had to add a few things over the base, but my goal was to add the minimum options necessary to each vehicle in each market to get them suitable for a basic scenario/use case, or as close as I could get to it. I defined that use case as follows: I want an off road vehicle that allows me to tow, has front and rear lockers (or the equivalent in the case of the LR), and has the ability to pop off a part of the roof to stand and take pictures. My reason for having that last one in this comparison is that it is the default state for one of the comparators (Jeep), so I might as well try to get as close to apples to apples. I did not add any other options unless I had no choice. All vehicles are petrol with automatic transmissions - note that the jeep can be had for less with a manual, which is actually preferable for some, but again apples to apples. I should add though, that some vehicles come with a LOT more stuff in the "base" price -- the Land Rover interior has premium audio and finishes by default, for instance, whereas those are options on the other marques.

2) The analysis isn't perfect. Not all packages are the same around the world; for instance I was unable to get a price from the Australian website for a Defender, so I had to guesstimate how much the options I added (tow package and locker systems) would cost from third party data, so I'm probably a bit off there. Another example is that the Jeep in both Canada and the USA come with a soft top, so I added the hard top; this appears to be default in the UK and Australia. In Canada, you cannot just get the tow package, it comes with the high load aux switches, whereas in the USA you can do the tow package without the aux switches. So, it's not perfect because of these regional configurator differences, but it's not a terrible "dead reckoning".

3) Finally, the actual dollar price is pretty irrelevant; the vehicle is not priced based on exchange rates but instead on what the local market will bear. To that end, all of the numbers are expressed in the local currency. With that thought, we needed a benchmark, so I picked the Big Mac from McDonalds, also expressed in local currency. This can be thought of as your opportunity cost -- "How many Big Macs could I get if instead of buying (model) of vehicle, I went to McDonalds?".

I think that covers most of the context, here are the numbers:

Prices of Various Vehicles Expressed in Local Currency

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler$56,630$65,275£62,520$98,534R1,099,900
Gladiator$55,075$67,225£N/A$94,212R1,329,900
Defender$67,875$82,730£70,925$87,830R1,816,600
Grenadier$77,300$101,084£61,970$104,385R1,584,635
Big Mac$5.78$6.70£3.81$6.48R47.24



How Many Big Macs Can I Buy For The Price Of That Car?

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler9,797.69,742.516,409.515,205.923,283.2
Gladiator9,528.510,033.6N/A14,538.928,152.0
Defender11,743.112,347.818,615.513,554.038,454.7
Grenadier13,373.715,087.216,265.115,108.833,544.3

So what does the analysis above show? Well, the first blush is that my reaction to the Canadian pricing was not unfair -- the biggest affordability jump from the competition is in Canada. I could get 2,739.4 Big Macs for the money I would save buying the Defender instead of the Grenadier. For my American friends, you would be able to get only 1,630.6 Big Macs for the money you'd save buying the Defender instead of the Gren. In the UK, the Defender would actually mean you could get 2,350 Big Macs if you purchased the Gren instead of the Defender. Australians can get 1554.8 Big Macs if they "skimp" and buy the Defender instead of the Gren. South Africans -- apart from getting stupid good deals on Big Macs -- would be able to buy 4,910 Big Macs if they buy the Gren instead of the Defender.

So, it seems like in some places, the Gren is the value option. In other places, like the ones whose flag is adorned with a Maple Leaf, it's exorbitantly more expensive than the competition. It also shows that dollar for dollar, the Gren is priced similarly in the USA and Australia; less than 100 Big Macs isn't a lot on a purchase of this size. In Europe and South Africa, the Gren is a relative steal of a deal.

Personally, if I were in America, I'd still be in - the value is there. But in Canada, it is not. Each of these vehicles represents some sort of compromise on the Gren, but as I've said earlier in this thread, I can compromise on a lot for 2739 Big Macs. That's 3 years worth of dinners' difference between what a Canadian pays for the Gren as compared to what an American pays for the Gren, versus the other options.

This was a quick comparison, and I could easily have made mistakes on the numbers and I'm totally open to folks correcting any of the above based on their own analysis; good science needs repeatability so if others are willing to do a similar experiment and post the results, that would be awesome.
I've been thinking about this for a bit, like most I find the price of a Grenadier quite high, but to be honest its right where I guessed it would be. Just too much going on for it to be cheap.

BUT: I think this chart by @ChasingOurTrunks is illuminating. Note the price comparison in the UK - this was, after all, created by a Brit to meet a need in that market, not necessarily other markets. In its home market, it's less expensive than the Wrangler or the Defender, so by that measure its right on the money, so to speak.
 

Todd n Natalie

OverCamper
My next overlander will have a carburetor... There is nothing built in the past 15 years that interests me.
Makes me wonder what ever happened to these 67-72 GM builds:

 

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