Espar Airtronic and Webasto Air Top

rockbender

Adventurer
As far as hydronic vs air systems the one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the power requirements. If you have limited battery capacity, the air heater will use less power than a similarly sized hydronic system that has pumps and blower units.

My brother-in-law recently borrowed my van with a D2 in it and camped at about 6400' (1950m). The unit worked fine for him the first night, but puffed out after about an hour the second night. When he brought it home (we live at about 3800' / 1150m), all I was getting was white smoke and the unit wouldn't fire.

After doing some research, I replaced the glow pin screen hoping that would take care of things. Nope - still wouldn't fire. Next, I followed the instructions on the Espar bulletin that Greg had posted somewhere (SMB Forum?) that has you run kerosene through the system to clean it out. Sure enough, after a couple cycles the unit finally sputtered and fired up on the kerosene. Once it got hot, it started spitting out bits of carbon out the exhaust and after running it good and hot for 30 minutes or so I rehooked it back to the diesel tank and all seems well again.

I don't currently have the altitude compensator, but might spring for one if I have any more issues. In the mean time, I'm going to make sure to run the unit once a month (didn't do that before) as well as make sure I run it on high both for the initial startup as well as the last 20 minutes or so before shutting down to help keep any buildup down.

FWIW, the screen didn't look all that plugged up - if I had ran the kerosene first I'm guessing I probably could have gotten by without changing it.
 

LanduytG

New member
The white smoke really is bad in the older model D2. The past couple of years they redesigned the combustion chamber and problem is gone.

To run that long at 6400 without altitude adjustments not that bad IMHO.

Greg
 

jnf

New member
I have been interested in the gasoline powered models. Do these experience the same issues at altitude as the diesel powered models? Also, is there a gasoline version available for every Espar model, or only certain ones?
 

dzzz

You might check the Sportmobile forums here and elsewhere. I believe some of those rigs have gas powered heaters. While I don't see why gasoline would be more dangerous than propane, I'm still somehwat bothered by the idea of putting a gasoline heater in a sleeping area. Gas should be cleaner than diesel, so perhaps better at altitude.
 

LanduytG

New member
A gas version just as safe or safer than propane. These heaters have so many safety devises that unless you were to defeat one they will just not work. Gas will burn cleaner than diesel but they can be very temperamental in extreme cold.

A D2 gas equivalent is a B1. In a D4 or 5 is a B4 or B5. Keep in mind that you will still need a high altitude compensator for gas if you intend to go over 5000 feet.

Greg
 

ExploreWithDon

New member
Very interesting!!

Hello all. I accidentally stumbled upon this forum, and decided to join as it seems to have a wealth of information. I'm hoping to contribute as I gain more knowledge and experience.

I sure hope I'm not bumping here. I'm interested in installing an Espar or Webasto before next winter. My van is a '95 GMC Vandura hightop with a large window volume. I'll most likely re-insulate this summer/fall though. I intend to do a lot of dry camping, some times maybe in below zero temps, however there 'will' be times when I'll be at a camp ground and have neighbors. I've heard that these units are very loud. What about diesel odor/smoke? That wouldn't be a good thing for a close neighbor. Can these units be "boxed in" and insulated for sound undercarriage, or even inside? Not sure how warm the outside of the unit gets. I know there are mufflers, but I think I read something about intake silencers(?). Also, I suppose putting an exhaust stack on is out of the question due to exhaust length requirements. I guess I'd need something to both take the chill off on cool nights and keep me toasty on -0 nights. Leaning towards air, but... idk... maybe hydronic is a better choice. Low fuel and amp consumption is important though. Thoughts, suggestions, ideas? Again, sorry if I bumped here.
 

shredwagon

Observer
Hi ExploreWithDon - Your best bet would be to find a local Espar or Webasto dealer. I know Espar makes boxes for the D5's. As for the exhaust, you can tee it into your vehicles so it exits out the rear. Again - best to talk to your local dealer unless you're really mechanically inclined and don't need a warranty.... in which case check out the van forums (Delica, Sportsmobile, Sprinter) for insight.

I'm installing a diesel D5 tommorow, so can't comment on experience..... yet. FYI - the Espar will be powered off an isolated house battery as the hydronics do draw. Something to keep in mind if you plan on using it to heat your van, and not just pre-heat a diesel engine in -30.
 

NothingClever

Explorer
Hmm...this thread is a bit disheartening.

Apologies up front if I missed this in this thread or the Webasto website.

The highest altitude discussed here is 7,000ft ASL.

Not to sound snooty, but that's not hard to achieve in North America or South America on a routine trip through, say, Colorado or Peru.

I looked over the Webasto website and although they briefly discuss the Automatic Altitude Adjustment as being standard, their threshold for 'high altitude' is only 2,000m. 2,000m? That's 'high altitude'....really?

Is their a decent diesel solution for altitudes above 10,000ft / 3,100m ASL?
 

dzzz

The Webasto EVO will likely get near 10,000ft. An Espar can be set up with two pumps, with one running very lean. There are installers in the western U.S. who have shops at 6-7000 ft. They would know how to do high altitude.
Espar altitude solutions seems to always reduce fuel flow. I believe the webasto EVO units actually increase combustion fan speed at lower air pressure.
 

NothingClever

Explorer
Thanks for the reply Dzzz. It looks like there are a couple of dealers in Colorado (my home state) so I should get a solid answer. I'm really hoping I can build a single-fuel camper so I don't have to fool with looking for propane in Central and South America. Part of the trip will be spent in the high country in the winter so I need a good solution to keep my wife and daughter content.
 

LanduytG

New member
The Espar with the high altitude compensator is good for at least 10K feet. It continuously adjust the pulse of the pump which does reduce fuel to the heater, which does give you less heat out. But most have a bigger heater than needed so reduced output is not a big deal anyway. Stay away from the 2 pump method it just does not work that well.
Webasto use to use more air but I'm not sure if that is still the case, because I have not worked on the lastest model.
IMHO and this is because I work on both, I feel the engineering is much better on the Espar. The Espar is much easier to take apart and repair. However if you don't drastically over size the heater for the space you are trying to heat it will run a long time without issues.

Greg
 

ExploreWithDon

New member
Thank you

Thanks shredwagon. I'm leaning towards Webasto I think. I don't know what others here have had as to Espar's customer service and customer support, but for me it has been very negative. Here are some examples:

I emailed both Espar and Webasto with some questions. Webasto got back with me fairly quickly. Espar? 35 days later from a John Giglio. Although my questions were answered, I asked why it took 35 days to reply to me, and I informed him that because of that time lapse I was a dissuaded potential customer and asked if he could "per"suade me to buying their Espar product. I also stated that I got a quick reply back from their competitor (although I didn't say who, as Webasto is a sibling company I guess), and that at this point I'm more inclined to go with them. What was his reply back to me? No apology for the 35 day late reply, no desire to check on the communication break down - if indeed that was the reason. His reply was "I appreciate your thoughts. The competitors could use some help. We wish you best of luck with your personal venture." I emailed the president of Espar, Mr. Hohensee, and of course I haven't had a reply, which I expected.

I do have an Espar dealer and installer nearby, 3 miles away actually, who has been dealing in Espars for a long time. I called one Saturday and the man working didn't have any knowledge about the product or units. So I called an Espar dealer much further from me. The man I spoke with there was courteous, took my phone number and questions, and said that the one who knows all about the Espar will call me back. He never did. That's when I decided to email my questions to Espar and Webasto as mentioned above.

So anyway I went to my local dealer 5 days ago, and found that they have D2's for $995 US. I asked about a muffler, digital control, and altitude compensator. He told me that he's never heard of Espar selling those. Ummm... what???? Ok, maybe 'I' am wrong and they don't(?). He wrote down my ph number and those extra items I was interested in and said he'd check on those and would call me. Couldn't he have just looked it up right then and there to see if Espar has them? So far I haven't heard a thing from them.

To me a brand and product is only as good as the people behind it. Whether that be sales, service, PR, whatever. I'd rather purchase a slightly inferior product whose company has the intent to look out for me after the sale and make something right if it's wrong, than deal with a company whose Rep tells me to go elsewhere, have no concern for 'my' concerns, and no remorse for poor customer service. How would the latter company treat their customers 'after' the sale? Obviously poorly. Maybe Webasto is just as bad, but thus far I've had no indication of this. Product quality is important, yes. And equally important is the people behind the product. If i went with Espar I'm quite sure I'd be on my own after the sale.
 

FellowTraveler

Explorer
Recently bought the Espar

The Espar with the high altitude compensator is good for at least 10K feet. It continuously adjust the pulse of the pump which does reduce fuel to the heater, which does give you less heat out. But most have a bigger heater than needed so reduced output is not a big deal anyway. Stay away from the 2 pump method it just does not work that well.
Webasto use to use more air but I'm not sure if that is still the case, because I have not worked on the lastest model.
IMHO and this is because I work on both, I feel the engineering is much better on the Espar. The Espar is much easier to take apart and repair. However if you don't drastically over size the heater for the space you are trying to heat it will run a long time without issues.

Greg

Hello Greg, I'm guessing you remember the recent big Evans purchase that was me. Have converted more than a few vehicles to the Evans.

I'll attack the Espar install once I finish replacing my aux fuel tank with one built by North West Metal products. I plan to tap into the drain plug of the aux tank for fuel feed to the Espar. I'm impressed with the Espar kit and looking forward to using the heater as needed.

As a side bar; the oil bypass system I had purchased from you way, way, way back when continues to give me great service.

Thanks for everything!
 

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