Discussion about the expedition trailer customer... want Ritz Carlton on wheels or ??

ManleyORV

Rugged. Reliable. Ready.
Evening everyone,

Being fairly new to the expedition/overland/offroad/jeep trailer market, I wanted to pick your brain. We spent a considerable amount of time (over two years) designing and testing our trailer with the ideology of taking the iconic 1/4 ton military trailer and updating, improving it and including accessories that most military trailer owners longed for... such as a lid, rack and tailgate. We wanted it to be a replicable, manufactured, modular product where accessories could be ordered and added at a later date. This would also allow us to produce these on a larger scale, thus keeping them in-stock and curbing the normal lead times for a one-off trailer.

We are getting quite a few inquiries with customer's wanting water tanks, propane systems, slide-out kitchens, battery systems, etc. Is this truly where the market is? I thought that the largest segment of the market is like me, just a guy and his dog that is going camping for a long weekend and needed something to put all his gear in because it won't fit in his 2-door Jeep? Or the guy taking his family camping over Memorial weekend and he'd never fit the bikes, luggage, camp stove etc. in his FJ with his wife and two kids in it?

Guys like him and I don't mind filling up a cooler with ice, we don't mind using a 5 gallon bucket with a spigot on it to wash dishes, or using the tailgate to cook dinner on our coleman stove. Guys like him and I also want to be able to use a trailer to run to home depot or to haul a dirt bike when we are not camping thus increasing it's functionality and helping justify the cost. This is the market that I thought was underserved and what we built our business around.

Just curious what everyone thinks? What are your necessities for your trailer? What are you using it for... just camping? How long are you going out for? Do you require a kitchen, plumbed propane and water, and electricity for your ARB Fridge?

Granted we have gotten a lot of positive feedback on our trailers and a lot of kudos for how we designed the trailer and our business. But I just can't help but wonder every time I get one of these phone calls about a built-in kitchen if I am the type of customer that is actually in the minority? I could see if I was spending a month at a time camping, how some of these things might become a needed convenience, but how many people in the US are spending that amount of time out in the wilderness at one time?

Any feedback or thoughts you could offer would be greatly appreciated! Not really looking to talk about my product or company in specific, but moreso the expedition/overland/offroad/jeep trailer market in general and what you, as the customer are looking for.

-Josh
 

BretEdge

Adventurer
This is a great topic for discussion and one I'll be following closely given the business venture upon which I'm about to embark here in Moab. You already know my personal preference but I'll offer it here as well so it's part of the community discussion.

If I were buying a trailer for me and my family, I'd get the Manley Explore. I drive an FJ Cruiser, I've got a wife and kid, and two dogs along with a huge heap of outdoor gear to support our mountain biking, hiking/backpacking, photographing and canyoneering habits. I like the simplicity of the Manley trailers as there are fewer potential issues to have to deal with in the field. We need a trailer to haul our gear that we can still take off-road, and use as a base camp for some of our adventures. My wife prefers to use a Coleman style stove because she doesn't want to be limited to cooking right by the trailer. We don't need a sink as the small Tupperware container we've got works just fine and is about as foolproof as it gets. Where we deviate from the simplicity of the Manley trailers is in food storage. We're getting a 50L fridge in which to carry our food but that'll be mounted in the back of the FJ, not in the trailer. Why? Because it will always be with us, even if we drop the trailer at a campsite and take off for the day. Ice melts and it ruins your food. And I'm tired of buying ice. So, a fridge makes sense to us.

My personal opinion on the best approach to trailers is one that allows a modular build. Don't want a fridge, sink and stove. No problem -buy the base unit. Want a kitchen with a sink and stove. Buy the base trailer and add the "kitchen" module that just bolts into the trailer. You could do the same with fridges, electrical systems, etc. This would also allow a customer to expand their trailer as time and funds allow. I realize there's more to the modular approach than just bolting everything in place as there's water and propane lines, water tanks, etc. but to a layman like me it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to design a trailer that allows this approach. Seeing what you guys have done it's obvious that you've got mad design and production skills!

That's my two cents. Thanks for posting this, Josh. I think it'll lead to some insightful discussion.
 

fowldarr

Explorer
Realistically there is a bigger market for a basic trailer in my opinion. Cost becomes a limiting factor when looking at the trailers that offer everything.
 

Titanpat57

Expedition Leader
I think speaking from experience...my tolerance for minimalistic camping could follow the timeline of my age.

When I was much younger, I was happy sleeping next to the fire and crapping over a log. I would've rather brought a .22 and ate fresh squirrel on a spit, just to make more room in the cooler for beer.


Now, still enjoying camping more than ever and quite a few years older, a few things have changed...


Now a hot shower is welcomed, an 8" air mattress, porta a john, 12v cooler, etc...has helped to smooth out the riffles a bit. Running water, protection form the elements, spare battery power and/or a generator, all make that time out and about extremely enjoyable. The 11' x 11' room on the back with the wood stove is, well...let's just leave that alone for now...:ylsmoke:


I believe the problem with the more advanced models, are the pricing structure loses it's competitive edge, and your into a no mans land of pricing yourself out of a sale....our competing against a backyard butcher such as myself, that thinks I can do it cheaper and better (common misconception in my world)...so it leaves the professional (you) in a tough spot. I do think one of your major advantages, is that you are in a small group, as there's not many real, expo hard core trailer builders (Chris Cole from Campa)on the East Coast...so you're in pretty good company as it stands right now.

Wish you lots of luck.
 

Fresno

Adventurer
I think the growth of the adventure trailers is moderate but expanding. The modest success of Austraila and South Africa trailers are pointing the way toward the future of adv trailers: more capable and more features. ...I think.
 

Hill Bill E.

Oath Keeper
I'm with BretEdge on this one, something that is modular.

I'm always adding to my M416 as I go, mainly because going all out at once, for me, is cost prohibitive.

If a person had the option of buying a base trailer, knowing that down the road, they could easily add a fridge, water tanks, etc to it, it may open up the market a lot.

Now, I know that things like a stove or sink works best as a slide out type of thing, and that may not be feasible for the average Joe to 'add on' later.
 

TheThom

Adventurer
I think most people will actually use the trailer you described. But take me as an example: I've always liked camping, but my wife didn't. I talked her into trying an old pop-up I found on craigslist (she doesn't like sleeping on the ground). Well, the PUP ended up being a rotted piece of garbage so I stripped it to the frame and am rebuilding it. This phrase has broken my bank "If I'm going to build it, I might as well......" insert "add solar" or "make a kitchen chuck box" or "add a tankless water heater system"

I think if someone is going to put down a significant investment into a trailer, they want to see about getting everything while they're at it. I have some friends that are serious mountain bikers and this summer (when my camper's finally done), we plan on doing group trips. I plan on having the "Base Camp" where I can cook, host, and stay. From that site we can venture out to hike, bike, photograph, etc. But the idea of a place to sleep off the ground, the ability to cook a variety of delicious foods and a way to wash the kids off with warm water all sound appealing.

I've found that this site seems to share a lot of the desire for those amenities.
 

Vantage

Adventurer
I am a younger avid camper (27 years old). I really enjoy being outside when I camp so I want a camper to reflect that. I do not need 3 big screens and 4 beds and such in a trailer but I would like some essentials.

1 decent sized bed off the ground.
Water resistant roof.
A heater to extend our camping through the spring and fall (im Canadian).
Onboard water with hand pump.
Propane tank mount (idealy with an line out and folding shelf for camp stove/cutting board area)
Battery for 1 or 2 outlets or LED lighting.

And the biggest problem.

A reasonable price.

It is nearly impossible to find anything with these features in the $5000 price range. I cannot justify spending $5000+ for a tent on wheels, when a regular tent costs $500 the top of the line model. I have nearly completed my Tent style basecamp and have less than $2000 into it.

A few con's I have for the stuff out there:

GF hates the idea of a RTT, so we are stuck to ground entrance trailers.
Many trailers are strictly a "tent on wheels" selling for over $6000. Adding useful options like a heater, propare, awning or battery can take them well over $8000.
Tent trailers are built like crap.
Hard sided trailers (Aline/Chalet) are $15000 new! Which are just tent trailers with hard sidewalls. I cannot justify $15000 when a tent trailer is $7000 or less new.

Military style trailers seem to be run down and require time, money and skill to refurbish. Many cost $3000 just to get back into decent shape. And they are still just a truck box on wheels. Adding options again is well over $5000.
Regular utility trailers are $500 used to $1500 new for a similar product with less clearance.

I think the problem lies with the style of camping I do. Fire service roads and small offroading are nearly impossible for a cheap pavement trailer while a full on expo trailer is overkill and to expensive for my needs.
There seems to be little to no middle ground of a well built, decent clearance trailer with a modest price tag. I already have a truck, so buying a second "box" just seems redundant; especially if it has no features.

To address your topic on kitchen and propane ect. The reason I like built in kitchens and propane and battery is simplicity.

If I pack all my pots and pans, stove, portable sink, 3 water jugs, mini generator in my truck it makes quite a heavy payload and takes up a lot of room. Being able to store all these items in a permenant position that is out of the way and easily accessable is perfect. I love the slide out kitchens found on Australian style campes because they encourage the outdoor lifestyle that is the whole reason you are camping, with all the convience one could want.
 
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Jevy

Adventurer
Personally I'ld suggest marketing the basic trailer and price the slide out kitchens, water tanks etc with such a profit margin that it make it worth your time to do. The thing is about those systems is once you figure it out the parts individually are not that expensive so putting a tank in after the 2nd or 3rd time it will take less time/make it more comfortable.

I will be using my trailer primarily for back country camping and kayak trips. If I knew then what I do now I would have come out ahead buying one of your trailers and just putting my little bit of flare on it.
 

Aspen Trails Trailers

Supporting Sponsor
We offer a bare bones trailer, nothing but the enclosed box, side door and rear door. Have never gotten an order for one nor have I had real questions about them. My orders and questions are about more things that can be put into it.

But then again mine are totally different than yours, which brings different customers. Mostly for the wife or girlfriend that refuses to sleep in a tent or on the ground. IE my wife. Started with the box trailer with roof top tent, heard about it continously, then started refusing to go. Hated the ladder, the mattress, stove, lack of water, no 110 for her hair blower.

I gave in and made what she wanted, that is how we got started on this venture. I do not build many so my guess there are far fewer customers like mine than yours. I loved my box trailer, but in most homes the mommy says what will happen, a happy mommy, makes for happy camping.

Bob
 

AFSOC

Explorer
I am no industry expert, I am only spewing impressions of a casual observer. IMHO the best way to judge the scale of the "market" for trailers upfitted with camping systems is by the number of phone calls and e-mail inquiries your company receives.

Trick battery systems, solar arrays, hot and cold running water, heaters and slide out this 'n' that make for very intriguing discussion. Intriguing discussion doesn't always translate into profitability in the marketplace. There may not be enough customers out there to make it worthwhile to pursue this niche.

Dedicated online communities like ExPo are great for discussing the latest state of the art products, exchanging ideas and showing off and commenting on build outs. The exchanges spark lots of interest and create lots of buzz and new ideas. Example is the Land Rover of Las Vegas LR4 project Overland Journal is building that was displayed at SEMA, the discussion thread on that truck has generated all kinds of interest with 16,000 views and 130 posts. It appeared that the LR3 and LR4 models were or had become popular as dedicated overlanders. However when a "LR3/LR4 Registry" thread was created, only six members and the LRLV/OJ project registered. Strong interest doesn't always equate to popularity as speculated by Scott when he started the registry thread.

Before investing too much resource toward systems upfitting, see if your company really has that many customers looking to be upsold. Specialization is very costly and may take away from your production. Those are just my thoughts, best of luck and your products look great!
 

ManleyORV

Rugged. Reliable. Ready.
I am no industry expert, I am only spewing impressions of a casual observer. IMHO the best way to judge the scale of the "market" for trailers upfitted with camping systems is by the number of phone calls and e-mail inquiries your company receives.

Trick battery systems, solar arrays, hot and cold running water, heaters and slide out this 'n' that make for very intriguing discussion. Intriguing discussion doesn't always translate into profitability in the marketplace. There may not be enough customers out there to make it worthwhile to pursue this niche.

Dedicated online communities like ExPo are great for discussing the latest state of the art products, exchanging ideas and showing off and commenting on build outs. The exchanges spark lots of interest and create lots of buzz and new ideas. Example is the Land Rover of Las Vegas LR4 project Overland Journal is building that was displayed at SEMA, the discussion thread on that truck has generated all kinds of interest with 16,000 views and 130 posts. It appeared that the LR3 and LR4 models were or had become popular as dedicated overlanders. However when a "LR3/LR4 Registry" thread was created, only six members and the LRLV/OJ project registered. Strong interest doesn't always equate to popularity as speculated by Scott when he started the registry thread.

Before investing too much resource toward systems upfitting, see if your company really has that many customers looking to be upsold. Specialization is very costly and may take away from your production. Those are just my thoughts, best of luck and your products look great!

Very thoughtful post and one that I understand and agree with. Appreciate your insight.

This was the reason I made the post. To get to the bottom of not what just excites potential customers in this space, but to gauge what is realistic in how they use or will use a trailer and how that will drive their purchasing decisions. I have a JK and I love reading about Rockkrawlers 2-door stretch kit... comp cut with Dynatrac 60's and 39" Krawlers :drool: ... but the reality is I will never purchase that $5000 lift, sawzall my Jeep or spend $700 a tire!

There is obviously a market for full blown expedition camping trailers... Adventure trailer is very successful, as is Campa and all the teardrops starting to come to market. These are awesome trailers and I love the idea of one just like I love the idea of a comp cut stretched JK. But just like there are far more budget boosted JK's running 35's; I built Manley ORV for the regular guy where a fully customized, purpose-built expo camping trailer would be overkill for his uses. And he doesn't have the skills to build a trailer from scratch or the patience or time to redo an M416. Again, a market that I feel is underserved!

So I guess to focus the discussion a bit, let me pose a couple of questions:

1) Do you or would you use a trailer for dual purpose; meaning utility and camping?

2) Would you spend $1000 to have a built in kitchen?

3) Would you want the kitchen to be easily removable so you can set it up away from the trailer if needed; while also allowing the trailer to be used for utility when removed?

4) Do you think that plumbed water and propane as well as batteries on board is worth $1000, the maintenance and only being able to use the trailer for camping?

Curious to hear your answers.

-Josh
 
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Septu

Explorer
I do not build many so my guess there are far fewer customers like mine than yours. I loved my box trailer, but in most homes the mommy says what will happen, a happy mommy, makes for happy camping.

Bob

This is where the price structure comes into play. It's a lot easier to cough up 4-5k than 20k+.

I built Manley ORV for the regular guy where a fully customized, purpose-built expo camping trailer would be overkill for his uses. And he doesn't have the skills to build a trailer from scratch or the patience or time to redo an M416. Again, a market that I feel is underserved!

So I guess to focus the discussion a bit, let me pose a couple of questions:

1) Do you or would you use a trailer for dual purpose; meaning utility and camping?

2) Would you spend $1000 to have a built in kitchen?

3) Would you want the kitchen to be easily removable so you can set it up away from the trailer if needed; while also allowing the trailer to be used for utility when removed?

4) Do you think that plumbed water and propane as well as batteries on board is worth $1000, the maintenance and only being able to use the trailer for camping?

-Josh

1) Ideally yes, however realistically no. Almost everything I look at more than once is something that's much more suited to camping than something that has any real use as a utility trailer.

2) Yes! As long as I like the kitchen. The one you displayed below is overkill, and I likely wouldn't spend money on it. My ideal "kitchen" is one that comes off the side of the trailer, and is fairly basic. I'm not even sure I need a sink, more just a stove and a prep area. Yes that can easily be accomplished with a counter and a small stove... however if there was an option for something I liked (and I was actually seriously considering spending money on a trailer), I'd have no issues spending more money to have a full kitchen.

One of the trailers I keep coming back to is CVT's Nomad Trailer. My only dislike is the size (it's a tad big), and having the tires match the tow vehicle (either 33s or 35s) could be interesting.
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3) Personally that's a non-issue. I'm not spending 6-8k (or more) to then use the trailer to haul crap to the dump.

4) Yes. For me, a trailer that has batteries to support my fridge holds a lot more appeal than one without. Every trailer I "build/price out" or imagine has an electrical system. The water is less of an issue... but I suspect that as Pat said above... I'm still fairly young (30). I wonder how tolerant I'll be in 10-20 years when it comes to onboard water and the option for a hot shower?

I see this as complete overkill. Perhaps if you're setup for a couple days, or are cooking for everyone and their dog... However for someone that just wants a simple kitchen - that they don't have the ability to build themselves, I think that's a lot more than what's needed.

As for the modular kitchen.. something that I've thought about many times is one that self enclosed and can mount in front of a M416 on the tongue (which would have to be extended) that slides out to one side or the other, and that's water/dust proof. I saw someone on here selling a m416 where they did this a (it was a while back), however had it coming out of the box on the side. Remove the cover, and pull out the small kitchen.

CVT also has a trailer where the kitchen comes out the back of the trailer... not sure what others thoughts are on this... but I can't stand it. Not sure why exactly (other than perhaps I dislike the loss of space on the inside), but it just doesn't appeal to me - at least in the setup they have.

Oh and on price... again if I'm in the market with the funds, I'd have no issues spending another 2-4 grand and getting exactly what I want vs getting a lesser model and having to continuously add to it. Part of that is my non-existent fabrication skills, and part of that is where I live and the lack of options in getting others to fab up what I want.
 
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AFSOC

Explorer
So I guess to focus the discussion a bit, let me pose a couple of questions:

1) Do you or would you use a trailer for dual purpose; meaning utility and camping?

2) Would you spend $1000 to have a built in kitchen?

3) Would you want the kitchen to be easily removable so you can set it up away from the trailer if needed; while also allowing the trailer to be used for utility when removed?

4) Do you think that plumbed water and propane as well as batteries on board is worth $1000, the maintenance and only being able to use the trailer for camping?

Curious to hear your answers.

-Josh

1) I don't use a trailer for camping, but I probably would under certain circumstance

2) I would NOT, but then again I own an XJ and a KLR650 so you can speculate how little that fashion and spending money are important to me. A fully integrated kitchen has never been on my list of wants. I don't have issue packing & unpacking a stove and other kitchen gear for use

3) I like the idea of the flexibility of dual purpose (thinking moto)

4) No, but that's me...a notorious cheapo and a DIYer. I seldom pay for fully optioned equipment and frequently have a backlog of unfinished projects.

There are those who are serious hobbiests about their support equipment. They get lots of enjoyment spending recreational time planning, researching and refining every element of their rig, trailer and gear. This sect may show more interest systems refinements and integration. My answers above are not from a minimalist but somebody whose approach to gear is from an overall value and a does it work or not standpoint.
 

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