Did Nissan Kill the SFA for Toyota???

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
Do you really believe decisions were made NOT based on market demand? This from the #1 maker on the globe? Really?

Though I have to admit hearsay from a long-time family friend who has since retired, but for Toyota USA, sorry, yes I'm quite convinced that personal bias affected executive decisions.

Edit: That affects demand. Supply is still perfectly valid reason based upon (as stated) existing parts and service training entrenchment.
 

ShottsCruisers

Explorer
105 was made because the IFS was not durable enough.

Yes...but for less than 1% of it's new SUV buyers.

Demand is not there, the UZJ has held up very well in world countries for most all applications. If there was a true need for that extra durability for the new SUV buyer the 105 would not have went away and there'd be a 205 model today.

No more SFA Land Rovers
No SFA Hummers
No SFA from......OK, Wranger and HD trucks where those buyers will need that design.

The world hasn't ended since the SFA models have gone away. IFS must be hanging in there.
 

Klierslc

Explorer
Normally I don't answer these types of questions. In this case though......

*Since 1998 how may IFS 100's were sold vs SFA 105?

*Which model did Toyota discontinue? The SFA model.

*If the SFA is in more demand than IFS for new car buyers, why didn't the IFS 100 go away instead?

*Does Toyota make a full size SUV LC or LX with a SFA any longer? Why not?

*How about he 120-series? Offered in SFA? Why not?

Do you know these answers Klierslc?

Good try, but I only asked you to back up your statistics stating that SFA would only account for 1/100th of one percent........

Also, I think they discontinued the IFS 100, but I am not sure.....

No one said that the SFA was in higher demand.

Still waiting on your sources.

Is a 2nd-3rd gen 4runner better than a 70 series because it has IFS and was sold in the US? Per your logic, apparently so.
 

BiG BoB

Adventurer
I'm glad I come from Australia where people DO buy brand new landcruisers to drive in a "hardcore" way. Same with Nissans and Landrovers, all of which are offered with a solid front axle

Ie Landcruiser 70 (wagon, troppy and trayback)
Nissan Patrol GU (wagon and trayback)
Landrover Defender (Dual cab, wagon and short wheelbase wagon)
and of course the might Suzuki Jimny, all the good stuff in a toy size 4wd (basically a samurai)

Sean
 

ShottsCruisers

Explorer
I'm glad I come from Australia where people DO buy brand new landcruisers to drive in a "hardcore" way. Same with Nissans and Landrovers, all of which are offered with a solid front axle

Sean

Yes, guys like you and me are out there though there's very few of us (especially in the USA) compared to the total number of sold vehicles. I bought my 2001 new and wheeled and modified it from the get-go.
 

Brian894x4

Explorer
I hate to weigh into this.

But as someone who still believes in the advantages of SFA, Shotts is right that Toyota recognized that IFS sells far more vehicles than SFA.

Articles were published in the 1990s in other countries that indicated that Toyota was losing Hilux sales left and right to the new IFS trucks from Isuzu and Nissan and that's why they ended up dumping the SFA in the Hilux for good.

It's pretty obvious that the vast majority of buyers of 100 series and today's 200 series vehicles are upscale buyers who are going to want the onroad advantages of IFS over SFA.

I'd have to agree that if you polled people who are of the income level to purchase a $60-70K vehicle, I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find even a fraction of 1% that would prefer a solid axle vehicle over IFS.

It's the aftermarket, where these vehicles actually get put to use and where the demand exists for a SFA. But Toyota has zero concern for who buys their vehicles on the used car market 10 or 15 years later. It's who's going to buy them now, when they are brand new and cost the most, that matters.

Australia and similiar countries have an entirely different driving population that we do here. The country is made up of massive road systems that require a heavy duty vehicle. It's no surprise that Toyota would market SUVs and family vehicles that are built for extreme duty in extreme off road situations. Whereas here in the states, 99% of the vehicles sold including, SUVs or pick ups or otherwise, never leave pavement. And most spend their lives driving on freeways at speeds over 70 mph. So, Toyota marketers are going to offer different vehicles for different markets where the majority of buyers have different driving styles.

Frankly, we should be thankful Toyota offered the Land Cruiser 80 and 100 series here at all. Because by the time the 80 series came out, Toyota was already plotting and planning to dump it's "real" 1 ton Hilux truck in favor of a "civilizied" north American market only truck called the Tacoma, which lacked most of the heavy duty features of the the Hiliux truck that continued production for overseas markets.

The fact that we got relatively the same vehicle that was produced for overseas markets, such as the 80 and 100, is very lucky for us indeed. I've always been surprised that Toyota marketed the 80 here at all, when it clearly had no true market for it's intended use, in the price range it sold for.

I assume it was only the SUV craze of the 1990s that motivated Toyota to bring it here, at a time in American car sales, when manufactures were desperate to find anything that could be called an SUV, to sell to a public desperate for SUVs. Honda, of all manufactures, even sold a rebadged Isuzu SUV, as one of their own. I think people were eager to drive an image and that's all they cared about. Things like power, weight, drivability, fuel economy didn't matter, because there were only so many offerings. As SUVs began to populate the roads, it was only then that manufactures had to compete against each other for comfort and drivability.

I don't think the 80 series would have sold well here today or even just a few years ago, were it the current model Land Cruiser, because there would be no extensive market for a $70,000 SFA SUV with all of the modern SUV offerings at the end of the SUV craze. Even though the 80 series handles better on the road than many other IFS offerings from other manufactures, in its price class ($65-75K in today's dollars) I think Toyota would know it would have a hard time selling them. And as a large manufacture, Toyota is not in the business of selling limited supplies of extremely high end or specialized vehicles, like the Mercedes G class SUVs. They are in the business of filling it's 1500 U.S. dealers with cars and trucks and SUVs that sell in relatively high volumes.

That all said, Shotts and I part ways in the idea that SFAs don't have any advantage over IFS. I've driven both types of suspensions and I've built and modified both platforms. Both work well for different kinds of driving, including different kinds of off roading. I personally prefer the SFA of the 80 series, because it is stronger, particularly in the area of the outer joints and front axles and offers a better off roadabliity for my type of driving, while still being more than respectable on road. The 80 is also easier to modify, lift and built for more extreme use. The 80 is the culmination of decades of SFA technology and development and it handles better on the highway than many older IFS vehicles, but obviously, more modern IFS vehicles like the 100 will handle even better on the highway. I definately wouldn't mind an IFS 100 series as a daily driver. Nor would I turn down an IFS 100 series to eventually replace my 80 when the time eventually comes. The 100 series has it's advantages, but I don't support the idea that those advantages are in most off road scenarios, when compared to the 80.

I think the 100 series IFS platform is a well designed, extremely durable IFS set up as far as IFS suspension go. Toyota knew how how to build high quality IFS suspensions, as the original IFS Hilux mini-truck set up was also extremely durable, and lasted as the Hilux IFS suspension from 1986 all the way through until the redesign of the Hilux in approximately 2005. That's almost a 20 year run of a nearly unchanged suspension design. The Tacoma/Tundra set up that followed in North America had its weaknesses, however, and that's one reason it was never offered in overseas models Hiluxes and why the 100 series was modeled closer to the original torsion bar style Hilux IFS, rather than the Tacoma/Tundra coil spring design.

As already mentioned the SFA is not dead. Toyota still markets the orignal 70 series vehicles to customers in other countries that desperately want the extra durability. The Land Cruiser wagon was in a similear class of the 70 series, when it was designed along side the 60 series, but with every successive model, the wagon has diverged away from the 70 series and has been increasingly marketed towards a different type of buyer. The 200 series is the culmunation of that divergence and I think that's why Toyota saw no need to build and market a SFA version of the 200 series. And probably why Toyota gave the 70 series it's biggest design and mechanical upgrades yet, in preparation for increased sales of those models with the death of the 105 series.
 
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Klierslc

Explorer
You are right about people buying 60-70k vehicles, but look at the wrangler fighter thread in chat....

There are quite a few who would be interested in a FJC type/price rig with a SA or a small pickup with a solid axle.


Sadly, American consumerism has shot us in the foot. People used to keep cars for 10-15 years, so the mfg cared about how durable it was. Now, people swith cars every 2-3 years--anybody can make a car that is reliable for 2-3 years....
 

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
...People used to keep cars for 10-15 years, so the mfg cared about how durable it was. Now, people swith cars every 2-3 years--anybody can make a car that is reliable for 2-3 years....

The winds of change are upon us. On average, we see older and older cars on the road and in driveways than we did just a few years ago. We'll see if there are any loyalty-with-longevity adjustments.
 

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
Yeah, just fodder for the live vs. independent axle department.

Where I was going with it is that apparently modern highway cars that have independent options still elect for live axle and have modern ride qualities. I'm still not sold that a live-axled LC would not ride exceptionally well in comparison to the competitive independent options.
 

hoser

Explorer
Toyota builds the Land Cruiser Wagon for the Middle East, not the US.

Here's your Land Cruiser Wagon Sales for 2006

US 3,605 (Not including Lexus)
Oceania 9,660
Europe 13,405
Middle East 38,831

Total LC Wagon sales were 82,684
 

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
Good figures:

US 3,605 (Not including Lexus)
Oceania 9,660
Europe 13,405
Middle East 38,831

Total LC Wagon sales were 82,684

Of which I'm very curious, I wonder for each of those theaters if you compared purchase price vs. annual salary (or equiv.) of the buyer markets and normalized against competition. What I reckon is that all things being equal, an LC would be comparatively cheaper in each of those theaters than the US.

Another point, if the US offered a poverty-pack version sold by Toyota and kept the LuXury upfit sales to Lexus, would we see higher sales volumes? Your thoughts?
 

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