Concealed Carry - What Have You Got?

MOguy

Explorer
QUOTE="ventura911, post: 2727600, member: 1795

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But earlier you saide CCW can escalate the problem. You also talked about not being required to show it but obligated to make things go smoother. To mean that sounds almost like a threat. Do what I say or suffer? I may not be understanding what your saying but to me that sounds almost like abuse of power.
 

ventura911

Adventurer
QUOTE="ventura911, post: 2727600, member: 1795
But earlier you saide CCW can escalate the problem. You also talked about not being required to show it but obligated to make things go smoother. To mean that sounds almost like a threat. Do what I say or suffer? I may not be understanding what your saying but to me that sounds almost like abuse of power. I agree, I think there’s a misunderstanding about what I‘m saying. Let me try to boil it down and see if we can put it to rest:

I am a cop who believes every adult, with the exception of criminals and people who are a danger to themselves or others, should be able to exercise his or her Second Amendment right to bear arms if he or she desires to do so. While the Second Amendment should be all that is necessary to do so, reality is such that we must live within the current local, state, and federal laws of our time. If one is required to obtain a CCW in order to exercise his or her Second Amendment right, then that’s what must be done until relevant law is changed. If no CCW is required by local, state, or federal law in your area and you may open carry and/or carry concealed, then you’re not in California and I wish you well.

If you are in California, however, and we meet during a traffic stop or other type of contact AND you, of your own accord, tell me you have a CCW and are armed, I will give you some simple directions so I can minimize the chance of any misunderstanding on my part as you retrieve said CCW. Barring any criminal activity related to said firearm, we’ll likely conclude whatever business we have and go our separate ways, no harm, no foul.

On the other hand, should we meet as mentioned AND you choose not to inform me you have a CCW and are armed, AND I have a suspicion you might be armed, AND I believe you might pose a danger to me or someone else, I will likely ask you if you are armed. You still have the choice as to whether you will inform me of your CCW and firearm at this time, and if you decide to tell me you do, then we’ll likely revert to what I outlined above. If, though, you still choose not to tell me, then I, given the circumstances, will likely feel a heightened sense of concern about the situation and take lawful steps (Terry search, holding you at gunpoint until I have backup with me before continuing my investigation, etc.) in order to safely control the situation. I will be doing so NOT because I don't believe in the Second Amendment, but because it is my duty to enforce California laws, including the stringent weapons-related laws.

With each right comes a duty to act responsibly while exercising that right. I hope that you and others choose to be responsible gun owners who understand that volunteering information about being armed when contacted by law enforcement gives officers more information with which to guide their decisions and actions.

Like the hundreds of thousands of peace officers working across the country today, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. I take this oath seriously, and I hope that your understanding and cooperation will make my job of trying to protect the public that much easier, and that much safer.

I’ll end this by wishing you the same thing I tell both my brothers and sisters in law enforcement and the motorists I stop:

Be safe.


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jaxyaks

Adventurer
You're better off with that knife than your Keltec.

Had the same pistol. And even a Kahr p380. Same thing but 3 times more expensive. Both proved impractical during advanced training (4). I used to carry them when I don't want to carry. Now I just skip them. If they were heavier, they'd more effective thrown at a target.

I still have a Jframe, but it's nearly useless as well, but more effective when thrown. ffs.
Yes, I am aware of the shortcomings of the kel-tec, it has always been the better than nothing choice. It has been quite reliable for me over the years in sessions, but its limitation is range, you gotta close to feel the breath distance, but better than nothing when wearing a pair of swim trunks and flip flops around. I owned a Kahr once, it was the least reliable pistol I have ever owned, that gun would get you killed.
 

jaxyaks

Adventurer
Quite the debate about everything but what you carry...but...I can sum up this law enforcement officer view (when I was working conventional law enforcement) I have never been too concerned about firearms unless they were pointed at me, or the person in control of them were threatening me. Now I know this is not the cut and dry officer friendly way to see things, but I didn't care if you told me you had one or not, just don't point it at me...if you were not supposed to have it, I would find out in due time as the stop played out etc.... I'm not the gun police...tell me you have it if you want...or don't.... Last time I was stopped, I told them I had a gun in the dash, he took it out and played it on top of the truck...the time before that, I didn't say anything...same result, we both went on our happy way....People overthink things sometimes...or maybe they are just too hyper sensitive...
 

MOguy

Explorer
But earlier you saide CCW can escalate the problem. You also talked about not being required to show it but obligated to make things go smoother. To mean that sounds almost like a threat. Do what I say or suffer? I may not be understanding what your saying but to me that sounds almost like abuse of power. I agree, I think there’s a misunderstanding about what I‘m saying. Let me try to boil it down and see if we can put it to rest:

I am a cop who believes every adult, with the exception of criminals and people who are a danger to themselves or others, should be able to exercise his or her Second Amendment right to bear arms if he or she desires to do so. While the Second Amendment should be all that is necessary to do so, reality is such that we must live within the current local, state, and federal laws of our time. If one is required to obtain a CCW in order to exercise his or her Second Amendment right, then that’s what must be done until relevant law is changed. If no CCW is required by local, state, or federal law in your area and you may open carry and/or carry concealed, then you’re not in California and I wish you well.

If you are in California, however, and we meet during a traffic stop or other type of contact AND you, of your own accord, tell me you have a CCW and are armed, I will give you some simple directions so I can minimize the chance of any misunderstanding on my part as you retrieve said CCW. Barring any criminal activity related to said firearm, we’ll likely conclude whatever business we have and go our separate ways, no harm, no foul.

On the other hand, should we meet as mentioned AND you choose not to inform me you have a CCW and are armed, AND I have a suspicion you might be armed, AND I believe you might pose a danger to me or someone else, I will likely ask you if you are armed. You still have the choice as to whether you will inform me of your CCW and firearm at this time, and if you decide to tell me you do, then we’ll likely revert to what I outlined above. If, though, you still choose not to tell me, then I, given the circumstances, will likely feel a heightened sense of concern about the situation and take lawful steps (Terry search, holding you at gunpoint until I have backup with me before continuing my investigation, etc.) in order to safely control the situation. I will be doing so NOT because I don't believe in the Second Amendment, but because it is my duty to enforce California laws, including the stringent weapons-related laws.

With each right comes a duty to act responsibly while exercising that right. I hope that you and others choose to be responsible gun owners who understand that volunteering information about being armed when contacted by law enforcement gives officers more information with which to guide their decisions and actions.

Like the hundreds of thousands of peace officers working across the country today, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. I take this oath seriously, and I hope that your understanding and cooperation will make my job of trying to protect the public that much easier, and that much safer.

I’ll end this by wishing you the same thing I tell both my brothers and sisters in law enforcement and the motorists I stop:

Be safe.
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We seem to be stuck in 2nd amendment / CCW thing. It is just what rights are in general. Laws should protect us and our rights. Rights should dictate law, law should not dictate rights.

For me it is more of a 4th amendment issue not so much a 2nd amendment issue. Whether you expect me to reveal I am carrying a gun, where I am going, where I have been or what I had for breakfast doesn't matter. If I am pulled over for speeding and have done nothing else the other stuff is not relevant. If you truly find reason to believe something else is going on then I would understand you going further.

Above you talk what you believe, if you believe there is problem and you should be trusted. Earlier you said people should feel obligated.

What you feel I am obligated to do may not be what I feel I am obligated to do. Obligated and required are not the same. I may not feel obligated to talk to the Officer any more than I have to but I will always be polite and respectful. It is not because I am hiding anything, I just may not want to talk to the Officer.

It is like when my X-wife calls. I will be polite, I will giver her the information she needs, I will not lie but I really don't want to talk to her anymore than I have to.
 
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BigAl

Expedition Leader
A few weeks ago, I was stopped in a Pennsylvania State Forest by a Ranger. He saw me coming on a narrow dirt road and pulled across the road in front of me. He asked what I was doing, I said I was driving up to the fire tower. He said "Do you have any guns or anything else illegal in the vehicle" I was not sure how to answer. I told him I did have a concealed handgun, but nothing illegal . He took my CCW permit and sat in his truck for 50 minutes with it. I was in a street legal but off-road modified Jeep. He asked several questions, trying to escalate the situation. He finally gave me back my "papers" and let me go. I think the Jeep was the root of the problem. Several Subarus drove by unnoticed while I waited. Never argue with a cop on a power trip.
 
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shade

Well-known member
A few weeks ago, I was stopped in a Pennsylvania State Forest by a Ranger. He saw me coming on a narrow dirt road and pulled across the road in front of me. He asked what I was doing, I said I was driving up to the fire tower. He said "Do you have any guns or anything else illegal in the vehicle" I was not sure how to answer. I told him I did have a concealed handgun, but nothing illegal . He took my CCW permit and sat in his truck for 50 minutes with it. I was in a street legal but off-road modified Jeep. He asked several questions, trying to escalate the situation. He finally gave me back my "papers" and let me go. I think the Jeep was the root of the problem. Several Subarus drove by unnoticed while I waited. Never argue with a cop on a power trip.
Sounds like someone in need of additional training.

It's unlikely there was a good reason to hang onto you that long, but it's possible. If the ranger felt they had cause to legally detain you for 50 minutes, they should've been able to tell you why by the end of your contact. If the ranger couldn't explain it, they probably shouldn't have been doing it. Even if the action was legal, not being able to explain it is not a good way to do business.

All of this goes back to communication and mutual respect. If LEOs would like for people that are legally armed to let them know about their weapons, they should reciprocate by telling people what they're doing and why they're doing it, at the appropriate time. In this example, the ranger didn't do that, and @BigAl was left to fill in the blanks for himself. What could've been a positive encounter (like @MOguy's) was needlessly turned negative.
 

MOguy

Explorer
the only time I ever talked to a Ranger about a firearm was one time camping in a National Park. His comment was he'd rather have people bring a firearm with them in the office and leave it in their tent.


I'm not sure how we got on the subject, I was asking about what forestry roads that were open and closed.
 

MOguy

Explorer
Sounds like someone in need of additional training.
This Ranger seems to have purposely detained a person for longer than necessary with out reason but I can't just assume that is what happened. I am not sure it is a training issue. I see it differently. There are questions that need to be answered. Could be anything from a Ranger abusing some ones time or a system that does not get the information the Ranger needed in a timely manner or...

If the Ranger, his equipment/technology are there other issues in the area that may lead the Ranger to believe more is going on? What ever the reason should have communicated that with BigAl.
 
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BigAl

Expedition Leader
This Ranger seems to have purposely detained a person for longer than necessary with out reason but I can't just assume that is what happened...
I was not given a reason for the delay. I don't think it was due to the CCW. All of the questions were like, "are you just here joyriding?, do you know there are no trails here you are allowed on? , which roads were you on?, what's in the cooler" He seemed to think I was going to go off-road. I think I was was profiled due to the jeep. He never asked to see the gun, just the permit, and ultimately let me go. This area of the forest is just outside of a college town, It does not see many hunters or even rednecks, it is mostly the granola and fleece groups that use this area. I think he was just trying to figure out why I was there.
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
A local nimby ratted on you. He was looking for any excuse to detain or f your day up.

I suggest you do whatever you did, with a couple other jeeps, over and over again. Until the rangers give up trying to harass people for doing nothing wrong. This technique has worked well for us in the past. Except for one of the guys, last in line, wanted to wear the ranger as a hat, after a few times. But that's another story.......

Ohio and PA Park Rangers can really suck in some areas. I was pulled over, we were just ''looking for something to do''. Exploring. Sorry that your dirt access road leads to something suspicious.
 

shade

Well-known member
This Ranger seems to have purposely detained a person for longer than necessary with out reason but I can't just assume that is what happened. I am not sure it is a training issue. I see it differently. There are questions that need to be answered. Could be anything from a Ranger abusing some ones time or a system that does not get the information the Ranger needed in a timely manner or...

If the Ranger, his equipment/technology are there other issues in the area that may lead the Ranger to believe more is going on? What ever the reason should have communicated that with BigAl.
I don't know if it's just a training issue, but it at least has all the markings of one. Past that, it's just speculation about the legality of the stop. If @BigAl wants to know more, he should make an inquiry with the agency; I would.

If an LEO makes a legal 50 minute stop and the end result doesn't include an arrest or an explanation of why a 50 minute detention occurred, they need some training. Frankly, that should happen at the conclusion of any detention. Who wouldn't want that after being detained even five minutes? I'll bet Ranger would want that if the roles were reversed. It's good manners, and part of being a professional, IMO.
 

shade

Well-known member
I was not given a reason for the delay. I don't think it was due to the CCW. All of the questions were like, "are you just here joyriding?, do you know there are no trails here you are allowed on? , which roads were you on?, what's in the cooler" He seemed to think I was going to go off-road. I think I was was profiled due to the jeep. He never asked to see the gun, just the permit, and ultimately let me go. This area of the forest is just outside of a college town, It does not see many hunters or even rednecks, it is mostly the granola and fleece groups that use this area. I think he was just trying to figure out why I was there.
I'd take a look at their complaint policy; it may be online. One would hope that someone in that agency knows that's worth a look. Ranger may really believe they're doing a good job, and you'll be doing everyone, including Ranger, a favour by bringing some attention to the problem.
 
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