Can someone smarter than me please explain…

[m-l_johnny]

And please use small words so I can understand.

As I understand it;
Straight up EV is battery powered with some regen from braking, etc. When the battery bank is drained, you’re done.
Hybrid typically has both battery banks and an ICE. Some regen from braking, etc, when the batteries get depleted to a certain level, or some other criteria is met, the ICE kicks in and propels the vehicle. Some hybrids, like the Chevy Volt, uses the ICE to run a generator, which only sends power to run the electric motor, thus becoming like a locomotive.

So why does no one make a hybrid that uses an ICE to recharge the batteries? Some speculation I’ve heard is that there would be too much heat generated recharging and discharging simultaneously.

Please correct me if any of my preconceptions are incorrect. My mind works in the mechanical realm. To me, electricity is black magic and works on smoke. Let the smoke out it doesn’t work anymore.

 

[WOODY2]

IMHO You just nailed it, trick is how to convince the masses. ?

 

[Bobu]

What you describe is just a series hybrid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle) like the BMW i3 with the range extender or even the Chevy Volt. If the ICE is active it runs at nearly constant speed and if the drive train doesn't need the full output power of the generator the remaining energy is used to charge the battery. This concept was even used in the last Dakar by Audi for their RS Q e-tron (https://www.audi.com/en/company/audi-sport/audi-racing-models/rs-q-e-tron.html).

Personally, I don't like the concept of a series hybrid. Too much technology, weight, and effort needed. A simple BEV with a large enough battery is in my opinion the better choice. Or if this doesn't work for certain expeditions just use an ICE vehicle and use the BEV for everything else. That's what I do right now.

 

[billiebob]

And please use small words so I can understand.

As I understand it;
Straight up EV is battery powered with some regen from braking, etc. When the battery bank is drained, you’re done.
Hybrid typically has both battery banks and an ICE. Some regen from braking, etc, when the batteries get depleted to a certain level, or some other criteria is met, the ICE kicks in and propels the vehicle. Some hybrids, like the Chevy Volt, uses the ICE to run a generator, which only sends power to run the electric motor, thus becoming like a locomotive.

So why does no one make a hybrid that uses an ICE to recharge the batteries? Some speculation I’ve heard is that there would be too much heat generated recharging and discharging simultaneously.

Please correct me if any of my preconceptions are incorrect. My mind works in the mechanical realm. To me, electricity is black magic and works on smoke. Let the smoke out it doesn’t work anymore.

So hybrid like the Prius, which has been doing this for 25 years. The ICE does propel the Prius like any FWD car and it recharges the battery.... Basically the electric part of the hybrid is for urban use, the electric motor in the Prius, Accord, Camry etc does not make enough power for Interstate travel and needs the ICE to both extend battery range and climb a mountain grade.

At some point the pure electric car will have wireless recharging.... like yer cell phone but we are not quite there yet...
Think ******** Tracey.....

 

[NatersXJ6]

I’m going to hazard a mildly educated guess and say that a parallel hybrid is ultimately more efficient because the battery bank cannot absorb all of the instantaneous power produced by the ICE at the same rate it is produced, and not all of the power from the ICE is needed to move the vehicle all the time, therefore splitting the difference and sizing an ICE that can move the car but also charge the batteries and an electric motor that can move the car but also boost the ICE when needed is actually the most efficient way to extract value from gasoline. Alternately, you would need to figure out how to rapidly and widely vary the ICE output to match conditions and eliminate waste…. Think 100 cylinders with variable fueling and timing…. We’ve seen how poorly multi-displacement systems work in the real world.

 

[Bobu]

I’m going to hazard a mildly educated guess and say that a parallel hybrid is ultimately more efficient ...

Not necessarily. On a parallel hybrid the ICE operates at different rotational speeds and due to this often in a less efficient speed range. In a series hybrid, the ICE operates always at the most efficient rotational speed. In addition, depending on the chosen concept, a parallel hybrid uses often more mechanical gears compared to a series hybrid, which further reduces the degree of efficiency. It depends a lot on the driving profile and the detailed technical concept whether a series hybrid is more or less efficient than a parallel hybrid.

 

[billiebob]

Not necessarily. On a parallel hybrid the ICE operates at different rotational speeds and due to this often in a less efficient speed range. In a series hybrid, the ICE operates always at the most efficient rotational speed. In addition, depending on the chosen concept, a parallel hybrid uses often more mechanical gears compared to a series hybrid, which further reduces the degree of efficiency. It depends a lot on the driving profile and the detailed technical concept whether a series hybrid is more or less efficient than a parallel hybrid.

Very true, 1960s cars with carbs and 2 or 3 speed automatics were incredibly inefficient since the engine had to develop power from 500rpm to 5000rpm. Today with computer controlled 10 speed automatics and CVC "transmissions" the engine runs in a very narrow rpm band. But it still needs flexibility and cannot match the efficiency of a pure electric engine.

Marine engines, fire truck engines, anything pumping liquid is always rated a higher horsepower than the same engine in a vehicle. Pumping engines from boats to fire pumpers are set to run at a peak rpm continuously. In a fire truck they have an automatic to get that peak pumping horsepower and still be driveable.

The inefficiency of an ICE is obvious in that they need a radiator to disapate horsepower they could not use. Same with the exhaust.... heat is wasted energy. Even the noise from an unmuffled straight pipe is wasted energy. Electric motors waste very little compared to an internal combustion engine. Electric motors have full torque at zero rpm. No need for a clutch which again generates heat wasting energy. Ever wonder why your smart phone does not have a miniature gas engine?

Washing machines used to be powered by gas engines... eventually nothing will use fossil fuels.

 

[billiebob]

Which were primarily sold to rural users what had no electric service.
Prior to that, much of the country a few miles out of town had no electric utility.
The electric models of that timeframe sold to people who did not mind an ungrounded openframe shockhazard to stick their hands into dirty water whilst using it.

lol yep we ALL have electricity today and we are fighting over EVs lol
You just made the case for the green movement.
Well done and thank you.

 

[JaSAn]

Nope. Similar problem: there is not enough electricity going to farms to power planting and harvest. A couple of week window when a crop farm uses 80%+ of its energy.
We will need a massive generation, storage, and distribution rural upgrade for that to happen.
Diesel, gasoline, and natural gas will be used for a long time.

 

[vintageracer]

Made a trip from the far West side of Nashville to rescue my daughter with a flat tire in the far SE side of Nashville TN. During the 100 mile drive through several local satellite cities and 2 counties all in the SE side of Nashville there were 9 count em 9 NEW large "Greenfield" gas stations being built in the SE side of Nashville/Murfreesboro TN.

Now the oil company executives are not stupid. They like many of us understand that GAS powered vehicles will be around for a longtime!

We just renegotiated a 20 year lease on a property we own with Mapco Petroleum so they could tear down and build a complete new gas station/convenience store facility on our property. We are talking a new $2MM-$4MM construction project on their part to replace their current facility.

With new vehicle consumption at 15MM-18MM vehicles/year. The saber rattling from the OEM's that they will quit making gas powered vehicles by 2035 along with the current average age of vehicles on the road today in the USA at 12-14 years of age and currently only 1% of vehicles on the road in the USA being electric powered the amount of YEARS it will take to consume/drive/junk all those gas powered vehicles "virtually" ensures that GAS powered vehicles will be around for at least another 35-45 years.

Maybe electric generation in the USA by that time will be sufficient to charge all these electric vehicles that so many dream about AND power homes, business's and industry OR maybe just maybe there may be a newer, better and cleaner transportation fueling option available which will once again displace electric powered vehicles just like what happened in the early 1900's in this country!

"Deja Vu" ???

MAYBE?

Most electric vehicles I see produced are "The Three Ugly Ones"!

 

[JMacs]

Back to the OP. If you are going to use an ICE to generate electricity, you need to connect it to an alternator. How quickly you want to produce electricity to charge the battery, will determine the size of the alternator.

For example, on a locomotive, you have a 2000hp diesel connected to an alternator that can produce up to the electrical equivalent of 2000hp. That sends power to four 500hp electric motors. Since weight isn't a concern, you have a 2000hp diesel, a 2000hp alternator, and four 500hp electric motors. (But no batteries.) That's a lot of weight. But that's what's needed for something to run constantly for hours on end. (Forgive me for not using the correct units on everything, but it is easier for this explanation.)

Now, if you want to throw some batteries into the mix and know that your EV won't be going at a constant speed for hours on end, you can reduce the size of the ICE and alternator. If you have a 30hp ICE and a 30hp alternator running constantly charging some batteries for an hour, in simple terms, you could run a 60hp motor for 30 minutes.

Think of it like an old water tower. Pump water into them at a constant rate. In the morning and in the late evening, a lot of water gets drained out quickly for showers and toilet flushing, more than is getting pumped in during those short bursts. But as long as the water coming for the entire day is greater than the water going out for those short times, all is good. If not, then everyone is limited to the amount of water going in.

This concept does work for certain vehicles. In town delivery vehicles, trash trucks, buses. They are big enough to handle the weight of an ICE, alternator, batteries, and drive electric motors. They start and stop a lot to help with regen. And they sit idle quite a bit too letting the charge build up in the battery before the driver hits the gas and drains it quickly to accelerate.

 

[Johstacy]

And please use small words so I can understand.

As I understand it;
Straight up EV is battery powered with some regen from braking, etc. When the battery bank is drained, you’re done.
Hybrid typically has both battery banks and an ICE. Some regen from braking, etc, when the batteries get depleted to a certain level, or some other criteria is met, the ICE kicks in and propels the vehicle. Some hybrids, like the Chevy Volt, uses the ICE to run a generator, which only sends power to run the electric motor, thus becoming like a locomotive.

So why does no one make a hybrid that uses an ICE to recharge the batteries? Some speculation I’ve heard is that there would be too much heat generated recharging and discharging simultaneously.

Please correct me if any of my preconceptions are incorrect. My mind works in the mechanical realm. To me, electricity is black magic and works on smoke. Let the smoke out it doesn’t work anymore.

I think one of the biggest reasons an ICE is not used to charge the batteries on a full EV is just the shear amount of power those vehicles use. I own a Rivian R1T and it has a 135Kwh battery in it. People don't understand just how much power that is. Sure I can literally plug it into a 110 outlet and I can get 1 mile an hour out of it charging and that is plugged directly into the wall. I could plug it into a generators 220 inverted outlet and maybe get to charge at 7Kwh which would get me about 13 to 15 miles an hour. That's a big generator to do that and you would use more power driving during that hour then that large generator could produce. In short you would never keep up. I believe the key here is two fold we need to develop a more robust DC fast charging network and second will just happen over time is better battery tech in 10 years battery tech will be way better than it is now.

On a side note I didn't by my Rivian to save the world I purchased it because it is **************

 

[calicamper]

So hybrid like the Prius, which has been doing this for 25 years. The ICE does propel the Prius like any FWD car and it recharges the battery.... Basically the electric part of the hybrid is for urban use, the electric motor in the Prius, Accord, Camry etc does not make enough power for Interstate travel and needs the ICE to both extend battery range and climb a mountain grade.

At some point the pure electric car will have wireless recharging.... like yer cell phone but we are not quite there yet...
Think ******** Tracey.....

View attachment 727127

Actually the newer hybrids not running old Toyota tech. Are running a cvt so the ICE can power the wheels. The Electric motor/ s most definitely are freeway speed capable unless 80mph is now not fast enough for freeway use. Even my 2016 Ford does this.

We use it for local trips and commuting. Absolutely awesome vehicle. 63mpg lifetime average. My daughter gets that car in a couple of yrs and we’ll replace it with a full EV for the same usage pattern.

If my Expedition had the same 20ish mile EV range its mileage would easily be double due to its local trip and traffic use. We use it on long trips also but at least it gets 25% better mileage than the Sequoia it replaced.

 

[plh]

With new vehicle consumption at 15MM-18MM vehicles/year. The saber rattling from the OEM's that they will quit making gas powered vehicles by 2035 along with the current average age of vehicles on the road today in the USA at 12-14 years of age and currently only 1% of vehicles on the road in the USA being electric powered the amount of YEARS it will take to consume/drive/junk all those gas powered vehicles "virtually" ensures that GAS powered vehicles will be around for at least another 35-45 years.

In 2022 approximately 720k new BEVs were sold in the USA (final tally not complete) out of an estimated 15.2M new Lt Trucks (11.9M) & Cars (3.3M) sold. There are an estimated 290.8M vehicles on the road in these categories in the USA. There have been 3.3M BEVs sold in USA since 2010 (considered birth year for volume production) it would be expected that 2.7M of these remain on the road. This is where the 1% comes from.

 

[CFMGarage]

eventually nothing will use fossil fuels.

Who's fossils are they? An energy source is an energy source.

Why should nothing use "fossil fuels"? That's like saying "eventually nothing will use wood fuels". Almost half the people of the earth still uses wood to heat and cook.