California fuel storage containers...

Metal Twister

Highly Motivated
I wasnt sure where to post this...

I'm in the most over regulated state in the nation and need to know who has had experience with CARB (Calif. Air Resources Board) Jerry cans. I'm under the impression that the nozzle is the magic to these cans? Im wondering if I can utilize my old Jerry and convert the nozzles over to the newer CARB approved nozzles? Wondering if the new cans have any CARB approved markings on them or only on the nozzles? Im hearing that the state park rangers have made this one of their ticket-able offenses of choice as they are easily spotted when not CARB approved? . I tried searching and came up empty. Any input on this? Thanks in advance
 

zelatore

Explorer
Wow, I had no idea you could be ticketed for having a non-CARB can. Are older cans not grandfathered in?

Frankly, every CARB can I've ever used was complete trash. It poured so slowly your arm would cramp long before it drained (glug....(pause)....glug.....(pause).....glug). And they inevitably spill more fuel than a regular can ever would.

A perfect example of good intentions gone wrong.
BTW, you can find youtube vids of how to 'fix' the CARB cans so they actually pour but wouldn't be visibly different.
 
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Glorybigs

Adventurer
You can not be cited for using an older fuel container, the carb regs relate to what containers/spouts and what service parts can be manufactured/sold.

But you still live there and pay them tax money....Go Galt or suffer the fools.
 

Metal Twister

Highly Motivated
Oh yes they do ticket you and its a very popular ticket with the rangers, Just drive from camp to camp and get their quota. Its really bad at the desert sand dune locations where everyone uses extra fuel and the cans are sitting next to the rigs out in the open. LOL And yes they do suck, then drip and suck and drip... Hate um!

Its hard to walk away from a life time of work and investments. But I think leaving the state may be in the cards in the near future.
 
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pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
There are a lot of things we love about California, but there are enough negatives to assure we will never live there again. I wouldn't be able to legally bring my trucks, weapons, fuel cans, and lord knows what else. It's a shame - we enjoyed living there but would have to give up too much to go back.
 

quickfarms

Adventurer
The ticket has to cite the statute you are violating. So what does the ticket say?

We have yet to be bothered but then we do not leave our cans laying around
 

zelatore

Explorer
You can not be cited for using an older fuel container, the carb regs relate to what containers/spouts and what service parts can be manufactured/sold.

But you still live there and pay them tax money....Go Galt or suffer the fools.

Na, I live near Galt and I don't think much of it.
http://www.ci.galt.ca.us/

Actually, as a non-native Californian (I moved here from Indiana in '98) I can say I'm more than happy with the place. Yes there are problems, but all I have to do is return to the mid-west for a day or two to realize I have NO desire to leave CA. And it's not just the Midwest that's a problem. I spent 2 weeks in Florida for work at the beginning of the month and for the life of me couldn't figure out what people see in the place. The humidity alone was enough to drive me out!

So yeah, our gas can laws are BS. Some of the gun laws are a PITA too though I still have a couple long guns and a couple hand guns. I'm willing to deal with it for the other benefits that come with living _here_ instead of _there_.
 

zelatore

Explorer
BTW, I hope Mr. Gas Can Cop doesn't raid my shed. I've got half a dozen non-CARB cans back there.
oops, did I say that out loud?
 

Metal Twister

Highly Motivated
I dont have any first hand experience with it... Just friends that claim they were ticketed for it? I didnt see the ticket so I thought I would bring it up just to see what was legal and what wasn't. I just went on Galamis Dunes and they have a few threads on there. Everything from being hassled to they are not enforcing the law right now. Don't know?
 

doug720

Expedition Leader
I had not heard Park Rangers were issuing tickets for non-compliant fuel containers, but CHP has been doing this in the High Desert areas in and around Victorville/Apple Valley. This has happened after D37 motorcycle races held in the Lucerne/Johnson Valley OHV area.

Vehicles with fuel type cans in plain sight - open PU beds - have been stopped and cans inspected. If the cans are pre-CARB mandate, confirmed by the date molded into the can, no problem. But, if the cans date is after the mandate, a few things can occur; Warning, fuel can be transferred into a vehicle, ticket issued, or if the officer feels it's warranted, the haz mat people are called and fuel is treated as hazardous materials! There are also other DOT rules they can enforce, such as color of can for the type of fuel, ie, gasoline cans must be red!

My neighbor is CHP and we had this discussion a while back. He said a couple of CHP in the area mentioned like to issue these tickets. He did mention there is a way out of this problem, if there is no date on the can, they can not confirm if it is pre or post carb mandate. So if cans get rubbed and any dates made unreadable... But they can enforce DOT rules, but that is very rare. He said to be polite and state the cans are at least 8 years old!

This issue has been discussed a quite a few times in the last couple years, here on Expo, Mud and D37, likely others sites also.

If you have a few cans on the exterior of a vehicle, it may be asking for trouble, especially if they look new, and possibly, if they are not red for gas.

Doug
 
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matthewp

Combat Truck Monkey
Straight of CARB's website (http://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfc.htm)
.
Here is the PDF with the latest changes to their law: http://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/fuel-containers/pfc/pfcreg2005.pdf
.
Not one mention of consumer use. Everything on their website addresses "...this article applies to any person who sells, supplies, offers for sale, advertises or manufactures for sale in California portable fuel containers or spouts or both portable fuel containers and spouts for use in California."
.
§ 2467.9. Enforcement even states "any manufacturer, distributor, or retailer manufacturing for
sale, advertising for sale, selling, or offering for sale in the State of California...
"
.
If it were me, Johnny Law would be explaining that ticket to me in front of a Judge. The ONLY way I see people getting ticketed is for not using a specifically DOT Approved container for the fuel that's in it (IE: Gasoline in a water, diesel or kerosene container) as stated here:http://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/advs/advs342.pdf.
.
I couldn't find anything in the CA Vehicle Code either.
 
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doug720

Expedition Leader
I just asked my neighbor about if/how a cop can enforce CARB rules on fuel cans. He said it is no different than a modified exhaust, or other non-compliant changes that don't meet carb rules. It is illegal to use a non-compliant fuel can made after 2005 in California. He said it;s no different than putting an older engine in a newer car, or how "Ricers" cars are crushed for illegal mods. Cops can enforce if they see a violation.

He told me to go to this site and it shows how CARB and the CHP are teaming up to enforce CARB rules. He stated checking trucks compliance is is no different than checking a fuel can for compliance.

I have never received a fuel can ticket, but from the posts I've seen, many have.

I'm not a cop and don't like the fuel can rules anymore than you do, but people should know what "MAY" happen.

Doug

You are here: Home / Top Stories / CA Air Resources Board Tightens Regulations, Partners with Cops
CA Air Resources Board Tightens Regulations, Partners with Cops
October 20, 2012 By Katy Grimes 19 Comments
Text Size: a- A+

CARB's enforcement arm

CARB has now “partnered” with law enforcement to ensure compliance. The California Highway Patrol has been ordered to pull truck drivers over to run tests on their engines to see if they are complying with CARB's diesel regulations.

CARB calls this their “full commitment to compliance.” There was a great deal of talk at the meeting about enforcement and penalties.

Last month, enforcement activities were conducted at CHP inspection stations, border crossings, truck stops, roadside locations, rest stops and port facilities.

Additionally, there was a well-coordinated media campaign orchestrated by CARB. Board members and staff bragged about the 37 news stories done by television news. They even showed clips of a few news stories. These were not public service announcements.

So now we have the California Air Resources Board writing the news, and compliant media reporting it as if it is spontaneous.

The CARB board meeting ended after discussing a resolution to the Cap and Trade program to cap prices at the level of the price containment reserve.

The monthly meeting of the California Air Resources Board on Thursday was nothing more than a mutual admiration society and big tax-and-spend club. After board members shared esteem for one another and CARB staff, several members of the audience jumped in to grovel before the board, instead of showing fear of the omniscient state agency.

The self-congratulatory tone at the final board meeting before the November California Cap-and-Trade Program Greenhouse Gas Allowance Auction should have been enough to make even the most hardened bureaucrat wince, but instead, the agenda did that.
Help us!

Earlier in the week, the AB 32 Implementation Group delivered a letter to Gov. Jerry Brown advocating policies to achieve greenhouse gas emission reductions to meet AB 32 goals in a manner that will protect jobs and the economy. They said they were disappointed that CARB has not made very necessary repairs to the Cap and Trade program before the November cap-and-trade auction of allowances, and asked Brown to step in to exercise his authority under AB 32.

Part of the self-congratulatory tone from CARB board members is because they have made it right up to the November Cap and Trade auction without having to address the concerns of the public, employers, taxpayers, manufacturers and other industries, who have begged them to stop the auction, or face more business closures, downsizings, and “leakage” to other states.

The Legislative Analyst's Office said the greenhouse gas auction of allowances is not necessary to achieve the mandates of AB 32, which is to reduce greenhouse gasses to 1990 levels by 2020. California is already showing greenhouse gas emissions reductions to 1992 levels. So many in business facing the very real prospective of having to buy expensive carbon credits just to keep doing business in the state are asking why the auction has to take place.

Windshield washer fluid, smog check program, and “Clean truck month” were on the agenda Thursday. These issues sound innocuous enough, but not in the hands of the Air Resources Board.
 
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mog

Kodiak Buckaroo
There are also other DOT rules they can enforce, such as color of can for the type of fuel, ie, gasoline cans must be red!
Does anyone have a link-etc for a DOT regulation requiring this? I've found OSHA regulations for red 'gasoline' cans in the workplace, but never any DOT regulations.
Yes, I've see the recommended colors, but I have not found this color system mandated.
If so, we can update this Portal Thread http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/31280-Fuel-cans-and-DOT
Thanks in advance.
 
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matthewp

Combat Truck Monkey
I just asked my neighbor about if/how a cop can enforce CARB rules on fuel cans. He said it is no different than a modified exhaust, or other non-compliant changes that don't meet carb rules. It is illegal to use a non-compliant fuel can made after 2005 in California. He said it;s no different than putting an older engine in a newer car, or how "Ricers" cars are crushed for illegal mods. Cops can enforce if they see a violation.

Doug720, the trick of that is the police cannot ticket you for using a container that was legal PRIOR to the 2005 regulation. If you have a "49 state" container that was built after 2005 in the state of California (as a resident of California), you may have a ticket able offense. Same as me, being a military member, legally residing in Florida, getting a ticket for my non-CARB containers while in California would be an ugly legal issue for both sides if I got a ticket.

The "Cash for Clunkers" deal was a purchase program because the government cannot legally relieve you of property without due compensation. The deal of fining you for legal possession of something that was legally purchased in that jurisdiction is un-Constitutional. Many other states have the same issue with legislation they have attempted. A current example is the lawsuit over the legality of NY forcing residents to sell ,or remove from the state, pre-1994 ban rifle magazines.

The illegally modified car example you use is "apples to oranges" because the cars are illegally modified from the requirements at the date of original purchase of that vehicle. If I put a whomping exhaust on a pre-smog car, as long as it violates nothing other than emissions laws. The LEOs can't do anything about it. I've been pulled over with CA "illegal" exhaust on my FL registered motorcycle (not a Harley) by CHP while I was stationed in CA. The officer threatened to write me a ticket, I obliged and told him I would see him in court... He warned me to "have a nice day" then got back in his car. My motorcycle was registered outside of CA, had an exhaust that was legal in its state of registration when purchased. Yes, he could have written me a ticket, but would it have held up in court?

From what I read of various online conversations about the subject, it eventually comes up that the containers are not even DOT legal for carrying fuel anyway, a violation regardless of the state (there are DOT regulations for portable containers transporting fuel on legal roads, in a vehicle).


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