CA Coastal Commission to revoke [ALL] OHV access to Pismo Dunes

shade

Well-known member
This is a great example of disinformation.

I'd have to figure out exactly where those tracks are to be certain, but last I drove by Factory Butte, the whole area was clearly designated for OHV use, with a bunch of signage about requirements to operate, fencing for safety, etc. The population density is extremely low, both for humans and every other life form. I suspect that the affected area is actually quite small compared to the enormity of the non-OHV lands, but that's not the point of the photo. And the dust! Yeah, blowing dust is a rarity in Utah. Ha!

Propaganda like that only undercuts the credibility of an organisation in my eyes, but to others, I'm sure it's a glaring example of humanity run amok. Evil, vile ATVs! Ban them! Ban them all to Hell!

Maybe those scars - note the anthropomorphism - are doing unspeakable harm, but I doubt they're bothering anyone that isn't looking for a reason to be bothered. I love hiking in wild places, but they can and should be shared responsibly with people that want to enjoy the land in different ways. Not all lands, and not all ways, but in the vastness of the American Southwest, there should always be places for people to rort around on machines.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
This is not about privileges or rights.

For decades, many groups/people have been trying to get public lands closed for no valid reason, and this appears to be another example.
This is part of the issue. While I agree spurious claims occur, simply dismissing the concerns of others only compounds the conflict. I am certain there are many legitimate, though competing concerns at play here. In some cases its obviously a special interest or corporate interest vying for control. Look at the ridiculous complaints by grazers/ranchers who think they own BLM land.
 

DaveInDenver

Expedition Leader
IME, more places have been ruined by overuse, than anything else. Whether it is too many cars, too many hikers, too many horses is not so much the issue as it is too many people.

I cant count the number of times places that were relatively unknown became known and then had to be closed because they could not handle all the traffic (foot, hoof, tire or otherwise).
That is the crux of the argument and basically what I think should happen. OHV, equestrian, bikes, foot - doesn't matter how you choose to use the land. Limit the number of users. Period. We're all in this together.

I think a compromise would be to issue 'x' number of permits and your selected mode of transportation dictates the number credits needed to get a permit. You can get a permit to hike in a "high use" zone 10 times while bicycling or horse riding gets you 6 and driving within the same zone the permit gets you say 2 trips.

Not every acre of public lands needs to be designated "high use" and there could be a graduated scale of high, mid and open use. Popular areas close to urban centers get high, particularly sensitive areas ecologically, too.

Or put another way to a permit allows 10 "uses" and a hike counts 1, bike 2, vehicle 5. So you can drive once, ride twice, hike once. Mix and match however you wish and the relative "impact unit" is variable depending on sustainable use profiles for the zone. There's places where a bike, horse and foot travel are all equally sustainable while others horse and bikes do relatively more damage than hikers or climbers.

There would of course be places deemed to important to use for vehicles, other simply too important to use at all. Most would be in between and a fair amount of the land west of the 100 parallel to about 100 miles from the Pacific Ocean would mostly be open use with a few very popular areas (like Moab and around Denver, SLC, Boise, Phoenix) managed.

It seems the fair way for 'most' people who sometimes vehicle camp, sometimes backpack, ski tour, bikepack, whatever. I get in a lottery for a few zone permits annually or whatever. The number of users is defined and the total usage is more or less manageable.

The best part of my plan is you get credit for trail work done, for example an extra lottery entry for every 10 hours of time you volunteer. :)
 
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Umbrarian

Observer
This is part of the issue. While I agree spurious claims occur, simply dismissing the concerns of others only compounds the conflict. I
Nothing was dismissed. We should all be skeptical when no evidence is provided.

Still awaiting the EIR.
 

shade

Well-known member
That is the crux of the argument and basically what I think should happen. OHV, equestrian, bikes, foot - doesn't matter how you choose to use the land. Limit the number of users. Period. We're all in this together.

I think a compromise would be to issue 'x' number of permits and your selected mode of transportation dictates the number credits needed to get a permit. You can get a permit to hike in a "high use" zone 10 times while bicycling or horse riding gets you 6 and driving within the same zone the permit gets you say 2 trips. Not every acres of public lands needs to be designated "high use" and there could be a graduated scale of high, mid and open use. Popular areas close to urban centers get high, particularly sensitive areas ecologically, too.

There would of course be places deemed to important to use for vehicles, other simply too important to use at all. Most would be in between and a fair amount of the land west of the 100 parallel to about 100 miles from the Pacific Ocean would mostly be open use with a few very popular areas (like Moab and around Denver, SLC, Boise, Phoenix) managed.

It seems the fair way for 'most' people who sometimes vehicle camp, sometimes backpack, ski tour, bikepack, whatever. I get in a lottery for a few zone permits annually or whatever. The number of users is defined and the total usage is more or less manageable.
And I think the core technology already exists to make a workable system. Between GPS, GIS, wildlife & human use data already on hand, something like what you described could begin, with adjustments made as it was rolled out to larger areas. Bring it online first in small areas that are most in need of it; Pismo seems ideal.

Heck, I was amazed that I could buy a campfire permit from the NPS by phone last year in Death Valley NP. A universal permitting system shouldn't scare them off. They already have the beginnings of it at recreation.gov.

Nothing was dismissed. We should all be skeptical when no evidence is provided.

Still awaiting the EIR.
As I said, evidence has been provided about air quality over time.

As long as an EIR can take, the dunes will be closed long before one is completed.
 
Plus! I moved to Utah 14 yrs ago. I biked Moab my first time in '93, last time was '06. I won't even go down there until October. too many ************** and trash. Last year my wife had a job opportunity at the hospital in Moab. We said no thanks!. blame posers for ruining it all. I've been around surfing since '74 and mountainbikes since '90. same story.
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
Are you saying it's a lost cause at this point? I'm not arguing the point; it looks very bleak.
The whole damned State is, we're leaving in 12-16mos. Been here 42 years and have watched the government ratchet down on one freedom after another. Highest state fuel taxes in the country - and July 1 it goes up another 6? cents. Just go to https://www.gasbuddy.com/GasPriceMap?z=4 to see how bad it is.

Used to ride ATVs / ATCs, Pismo, Glamis, Buttercup, then the State obliterated tricycles in favor of quads. Used to play with Jetskis, then the state ruled out two-stroke engines.

16 shooting areas in Angeles forest closed, only 2 re-opened at the far ends. Texas Canyon was a great OHV and shooting area, shut down forever when a CSUN prof and students found some unspecial indian pottery. Hunt and Kentucky Canyons in Palmdale shut down, ostensibly for litter and despite regular cleanups, but tract homes went in just north of there not long after.

Little Rock Dam & Recreational area, a huge locus of cool fun in the high desert, shuttered forever, 'insufficient resources to patrol / regulate', despite their fee generation.

For THIRTY years, CA has been trying to ban semi-auto centerfire rifles any way they can, yet there's more of them than ever. They even reneged on the magazine capacity laws of '99 and criminalized previously grandfathered possession of mags with 10+ capacity. Last couple years they've tried to make their ownership a post-facto felony.

July 1, new ammo purchase registration / background checks go into effect. No mail order of bulk ammo without routing it thru a FFL and paying them handling charges for the privilege.

And CA DOJ just filed for an emergency rules change at the last moment, it will take a Real ID to buy guns or ammo in this State. And that's AFTER CA spend years screwing up compliance with Federal ID regs and issuing driver's licenses to illegals, to the point where my normal ID will no longer be accepted by Feds, for air travel. I figured I'd just use my passport, but now this 11th hour BS by CA DOJ means I've got to take an entire day to go wait in our swamped DMV to get a Real ID. Can't even make an appt, the system is already totally backlogged.

They've killed offshore oil, killed our nuke plants, repeatedly declare their intent to kill fossil fuel use. Adopted diesel emission regs that are crushing small businesses who can't afford to meet them.

Business and Workman's Comp costs are extreme and hostile to legit small businesses. I have three businesses in the offing that I cannot afford to launch, I'm waiting until we move out of state like 4-5 million other middle class citizens over the last 20yrs..

And just today I saw this sad display at my local supermarket - this is what has become of legal fireworks for INDEPENDENCE Day -



And for 30yrs+ the Sierra Club et al have been trying to ban all POV traffic from places like Yosemite Valley. To sequester it for themselves and limit everyone else to ridign a shuttle bus in, forcing folks pack light, if they even try to camp at all.

Several years ago on specious "science" on top of Rachel Carson's bogus 'Silent Spring', the use of lead ammo was banned in CA's 'condor zone'. Now those regs are expanded across the entire state.
Open carry in the State is now forbidden even on the backside of beyond where there's no LEO to help you and it's completely subjective if you'll be harassed in unincorporated rural lands.

It's now illegal to vape in SanFran or let your pet crap on the street, but you can openly smoke pot and take a human dump on the sidewalk. Bum / drug addict / psycho camps sprouting all over our major cities as their politicians demonstrate they are utterly incapable of dealing with the issue or give a damn about their taxpaying citizens' property rights or quality of life. Or even their basic safety. Seems every week someone in this state is being murdered by a crazy bum or an illegal.

'ROAD DIETS' here in L.A. and elsewhere in the state, collectivists are trying to drive people out of their vehicles by deliberately creating traffic jams by dint of REMOVING traffic lanes from already busy throughfares. Removing lanes and filling them with planters and bike lanes, so not even emergency vehicles can pass in a timely manner. Those people burned alive in their cars in the Paradise fire? That town twice enacted 'road diet' plans reducing their primary and secondary evacuation routes from two lanes to one. Leaving desperate people stuck in traffic jams with no way to escape the firestorm.

It's time to get out, before this state goes the way of Detroit / Chicago. It's a one-party State and it's heading the way those always do.
 

Umbrarian

Observer
As I said, evidence has been provided about air quality over time.
Except air quality was not one of the reasons listed, and if it was, it is one of the easiest to manage.

Those measures include not only the above-mentioned fencing of 500 acres to promote vegetation growth but also the permanent closure of 300 acres currently closed seasonally to protect local snowy plover habitat, a ban on nighttime driving to protect nocturnal wildlife, a prohibition on crossing Arroyo Grande Creek when it connects to the ocean to protect fish populations

The 4 reasons listed here are mostly about vehicles running things over, which also is easy to manage without shutting the entire place down.
 

shade

Well-known member
Except air quality was not one of the reasons listed, and if it was, it is one of the easiest to manage.

Those measures include not only the above-mentioned fencing of 500 acres to promote vegetation growth but also the permanent closure of 300 acres currently closed seasonally to protect local snowy plover habitat, a ban on nighttime driving to protect nocturnal wildlife, a prohibition on crossing Arroyo Grande Creek when it connects to the ocean to protect fish populations

The 4 reasons listed here are mostly about vehicles running things over, which also is easy to manage without shutting the entire place down.
Air quality is one of the points of contention.

I'd say the whole issue is about too many "vehicles running things over", and I agree that this appears to be an entirely manageable situation - but only of people are willing to work together. Right now, the people with the power are the ones that want it closed, and I'm not sure they want to talk about anything but closure.
 

Umbrarian

Observer
I'd say the whole issue is about too many "vehicles running things over", and I agree that this appears to be an entirely manageable situation - but only of people are willing to work together. Right now, the people with the power are the ones that want it closed, and I'm not sure they want to talk about anything but closure.
SSDD
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
Except air quality was not one of the reasons listed, and if it was, it is one of the easiest to manage.

Those measures include not only the above-mentioned fencing of 500 acres to promote vegetation growth but also the permanent closure of 300 acres currently closed seasonally to protect local snowy plover habitat, a ban on nighttime driving to protect nocturnal wildlife, a prohibition on crossing Arroyo Grande Creek when it connects to the ocean to protect fish populations

The 4 reasons listed here are mostly about vehicles running things over, which also is easy to manage without shutting the entire place down.

This is what I mean by being 'ahistorical'. Those all sound like reasonable measures, from a eco-indoctrinated viewpoint. But they are really proximate excuses to snuff out the last vestiges of OHV use in a place that was internationally famous for it for generations. All 'compromised' away, using whatever newt or midge or snail darter is at hand.

Last year a count was attemped in the Sacramento river delta / wetlands, looking to count the population of that tiny non-native fish that was used as a legal predicate to flush so much of stored fresh water down to the sea - they spent a small fortune on the count and didn't find any.

There is a plaque of eco-marxist lawfare being waged against this State's human population. It is non-stop and waged with every possible trick and excuse and there is zero 'compromise' offered by or to be offered to them.
 
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