ATF PISTOL BRACE RULE AND SBR AMNESTY

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
I could have provided you gun-related articles saying the same but I assumed you'd make the argument of " 60% of their products are sold ot Trust holders". I dunno what you want dude.

(figure assuming LE and Military account for 40% of revenue)
Sorry, I missed this while typing.

Nothing I want, point is, don't rely on a Trust to limit or extinguish your personal liability of gun ownership, do not believe the crap preached by internet "lawyers", seriously, you think these failures from chasing ambulances have your best interests at heart?

BTW, this is a discussion, I'm not giving you legal advice, I'm not your attorney.
 
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Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Man, that’s why I provided the Merrill link… Had I provided an attorney commenting on trusts, they’re also selling the service. I can’t tell if you’re being intentionally obtuse
Not being obtuse at all, that link is, in my onion, not creditable and the disclaimer tells you why. Go to an attorney in your jurisdiction who has specific knowledge of this matter and don't try to be your own attorney betting, what might be, years of your life about gun ownership issues!

Just buy and hold your guns like everyone else, as the law provides, individually, simple, don't try to out smart the system, there are thousands of wise guys in prison.

Forget Merrill link do da day'o' s they don't represent you!

If you really feel you have special circumstances, go see a qualified attorney, you aren't one.
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Conspiracy Theorist?

I felt most of your post talked in circles so I found it very difficult to follow. However, the trust allows multiple people to possess the item requiring the tax stamp, it doesn't circumvent it. It does not cover unlawful use, be it as described in the trust, or as described in local, state, or federal law. I am confident if you did a quick search you would've found the answers quicker than it took you to post your speculation.

Given this is text I want to add that I am not trying to be rude. Just hopefully providing statements based on facts.

Sorry I missed this, my post was not so much of speculation as to an argument that may be justified to pierce that vail of assumed immunity.

I understand, without research, that several parties may be enjoined to a Trust, I really don't see that as an issue, one or many, no difference really. The point I'm making is that it is the Trust that holds the license, the tax stamp, the permission to own, not the Trustee(s) or Beneficiaries. Acts by persons can only be in compliance with the Trust Articles, use outside of those instructions is when you take on personal liability, acting outside of the Trust.
I would stress again, your jurisdiction has a lot to do with the administration of such a Trust, federally as well as by State law. AND, no germane Trust off the internet will be in compliance with all jurisdictions!

I never took your comment as being rude, thank you, to be honest, I'm flying by the concept of internet legal advisors selling crap to the masses because they can't do any better where they would otherwise practice. I see most as failed ambulance chasers or who can't sell life insurance as estate planners. Seriously, there are some really sorry folks who passed a Bar Exam.

A Trust might be the perfect vehicle for some, certainly not all, as those promoting them would have you believe. Trusts are "over sold" to the public, most folks do not need one. I'm sure this is just another example of judicial marketing and sales.

The Trust owns the license, has been granted permission to own, however you want to look at it, the Trustee is only an agent of the Trust, the only power, rights or privileges of a Trustee are those specifically granted by the Trust documents, no more, no less and specifically stated. Reread my initial post on the issue and it should be clear.

You mentioned several users, as if others may use the weapon, is this not possible if you held the stamp personally and others used the weapon while under your control? I think others could. I'm not seeing any advantage to others being involved, if there is, please describe the advantages.

Again, bottom line, I see no advantage in Trust ownership over individual ownership, being insured, and more complications with the Trust. I suppose that's the whole point.
 

ITTOG

Well-known member
Okay, I didn't read every word of that debate or the links but the trust I have for a suppressor does a few things. It assigns a settlor, trustees, beneficiaries, and who can posses the NFA device. That is pretty much it. It does not address anything related to use of the device or any liability. That all falls under already existing laws and in no way can the trust supersede those laws.
 

ITTOG

Well-known member
Also, it is interesting to see the state police agencies that are indicating they will not enforce the new ruling. I think I have seen three different states so far. Not that the ATF couldn't come though.
 

jaxyaks

Adventurer
Ok...... I just have to say, hopefully when people filled out their original form 4 to purchase these Brace guns they listed their correct address and information and if they proceed with this Brace grace period, they will also use their correct info because if not, they will be opening a whole other problem of filing a false form 4 (federal crime).

NOW, I understand NO ONE is suggesting not using their correct address on these forms, they are just saying YOU are now giving the Government your current address........but, this is just gaslighting and spinning things up with no real basis since......

Has anyone ever used open source/pay to play systems like LexisNexis or similar? Or, closed, secure, LE only systems like NCIC, ALERT, EPIC, DMV, Etc....or closed, secure, Fed Agency only systems like the ATF, Marshals, IRS, FBI, DEA, USSS, DOD, etc...use daily? If an investigation was opened (key point) they will literally do a dump from all these data bases so, they already know your current and correct address before you put it on the form.

Just FYI. FWIW and not legal advice.
Why would anyone have filled out a form 4 to buy a braced firearm prior to this rule?...and what does matching adresses have to do with anything...last time I checked you were free to move anytime you want.
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Okay, I didn't read every word of that debate or....... It does not address anything related to use of the device or any liability. That all falls under already existing laws and in no way can the trust supersede those laws.
Exactly, it's in reality, that can be the problem.

Going further, it would make more sense to me to use a 501(c)(3) corporation to own firearms. Then the recreational use can be easily justified, you'd have a gun club. As a public corp. you'd enjoy limited liability, tax free status on any income received directly supporting the non-profit mission as well as perpetual existence with restricted membership.

IMO, Trusts are over used, over blown, over rated, and over sold.

With a Trust you must follow the Trust instructions, with a 501 (c)(3) the Charter and By-Laws set parameters broadly, just have your own mini NRA.

However, a Trust can be with one person as Trustee, a non-profit requires 3 likeminded people who may or may not be allowed to be related, depending on State Law.
 
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BritKLR

Kapitis Indagatoris
It appears this thread has gone down
Why would anyone have filled out a form 4 to buy a braced firearm prior to this rule?...and what does matching adresses have to do with anything...last time I checked you were free to move anytime you want.


Oops….my fat fingers missed the form 4473, not form 4. Thanks for pointing that out but, leaving out the correction.

Also, maybe go back and re-read my post. There was nothing in it about impinging on your freedom to move.

Drama………..
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
It appears this thread has gone down



Oops….my fat fingers missed the form 4473, not form 4. Thanks for pointing that out but, leaving out the correction.

Also, maybe go back and re-read my post. There was nothing in it about impinging on your freedom to move.

Drama………..
Sorry to drag things off topic for you.
I was going to ask you too, if you know how restricted ownership or registered items are held by a corporate entity.
Assume we have a security company, armored car service or a fraternal organization for LE/Military Vets.
The business entity owns the weapon, not the individual, a "duty gun".
Can corporate ownership be accomplished under current regulations?

I'm not familiar at all with ATF Regulations.

I "assume" items can be held in a corporate name as I stated a Trust is a form of a corporate entity, or corpus.

If this area is muddying up your thread, this ownership matter of these items can be moved to another thread, your call.
 

ITTOG

Well-known member
Sorry to drag things off topic for you.
I was going to ask you too, if you know how restricted ownership or registered items are held by a corporate entity.
Assume we have a security company, armored car service or a fraternal organization for LE/Military Vets.
The business entity owns the weapon, not the individual, a "duty gun".
Can corporate ownership be accomplished under current regulations?

I'm not familiar at all with ATF Regulations.

I "assume" items can be held in a corporate name as I stated a Trust is a form of a corporate entity, or corpus.

If this area is muddying up your thread, this ownership matter of these items can be moved to another thread, your call.
Based on the form I used the answer is yes. It asks if corporation, individual, trust, or other legal entity.
 

neliconcept

Spirit Overland
Take the brace off, and see where this goes, do not get the free tax stamp unless you were planning to get an SBR or make it an SBR anyways. I don't trust this at all, and the ATF has way overstepped their bounds and this will most likely get struck down. Just wait it out.
 

Ole Chipper

Member
Just wait, remove it if your freaked out. You can get a smooth pistol tube for 15 bucks or less and slap it on quick. Big deal..
 

donaldj

Observer
In my opinion this is all a huge trap.

Currently, there are millions of these in the public. There is a team of 4 people working on the registrations. It will take YEARS to get through all the paperwork.

There is NO EXEMPTION if you've sent in your registration and their paperwork takes longer than the "amnesty" period. After you've sent in your registration, and they dont get to your stuff, they will have photo proof and attestation that you own it. By submitting the application, you've self incriminated.

My opinion is if you take the brace off (their wording is VERY dependent on "firearms with a stabilizing brace") you'll be fine legally (but maybe not free from being hassled).

Alternately, get a full length barrel and make this a definitive rifle.

If they come knocking, ALWAYS demand to see a warrant. It is the height of stupidity to think the moral citizen and the government are in some "partnership for justice". You are not helping your cause by answering questions, ever. You are not helping your cause by 'demonstrating cooperation'. Questions are ALWAYS "we need more information to be able to charge you". Otherwise, they already would have.

If they are a'knockin, lawyer up NOW.

Once the ATF rule is overturned (and current higher court cases are showing a healthy respect for the 2A), you can convert it all back.
 

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