Advice Needed:: Tacoma owner considering a ZR2

Clutch

<---Pass
Look at the Ford F150 2.7l Ecoboost . The 2018 with 10 speed tranny gets ~ 2 mpg better than the 2017 6 speed. These trucks are super fun to drive and seem to be reliable after some teething issues with the early models. The gas milage is exceptional for a gas 1/2 ton pickup. 21/19/24 mpg.
Go to a dealer and take a test drive and you'll experience the lively almost sports car like performance. I own a 2018 3.5 EB but had the use of a 2017 2.7 EB for several months and I'd probably go for the 2.7 if gas milage is a concern. The 2.7 has plenty of high torque power for almost any situation. If you're coming from a Taco, there'll be a huge difference. If you need to tow heavy then the 3.5 is optimum. Really good payload too. Fully boxed frame.
Believe the 2.7 EcoBoost is the best bang for the buck right now. Can be had for the same or cheaper than a Tacoma, depending on where you look.

Its' 325 HP/400TQ feel about right, not overkill and not wimpy either....it is the Goldilocks of power plants out there currently. I was talking to forum member pnut, he says he gets 22-23 mpg out of his. Which is basically what people doing the Cummins 2.8 swap are getting from my research.
 

Rockaway

New member
Look at the Ford F150 2.7l Ecoboost . The 2018 with 10 speed tranny gets ~ 2 mpg better than the 2017 6 speed. These trucks are super fun to drive and seem to be reliable after some teething issues with the early models. The gas milage is exceptional for a gas 1/2 ton pickup. 21/19/24 mpg.
Go to a dealer and take a test drive and you'll experience the lively almost sports car like performance. I own a 2018 3.5 EB but had the use of a 2017 2.7 EB for several months and I'd probably go for the 2.7 if gas milage is a concern. The 2.7 has plenty of high torque power for almost any situation. If you're coming from a Taco, there'll be a huge difference. If you need to tow heavy then the 3.5 is optimum. Really good payload too. Fully boxed frame.
Believe the 2.7 EcoBoost is the best bang for the buck right now. Can be had for the same or cheaper than a Tacoma, depending on where you look.

Its' 325 HP/400TQ feel about right, not overkill and not wimpy either....it is the Goldilocks of power plants out there currently. I was talking to forum member pnut, he says he gets 22-23 mpg out of his. Which is basically what people doing the Cummins 2.8 swap are getting from my research.
I agree with everything. I just purchased a 2018 F150 XLT FX4 with 3.5 ECOBOOST. Good power and torque with a 36 gal gas tank. Endless possibilities with good vehicle support. My family and I are going to use it to haul motorcycles(Two Triumph tigers) as we travel in our motor home. The F150 provides a flat tow mode which makes it easy to pull behind our RV.

The 3.5 liter engine mated with the new 10 speed transmission gives a nice combination of torque and power transfer. The 6 speed transmission wasn’t as successful giving usable power for off road usage. Power is great as long as its usable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

rruff

Explorer
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-150/2018?engineconfig_id=49&bodytype_id=14&submodel_id=
Based on data from 20 vehicles, 215 fuel-ups and 83,691 miles of driving, the 2018 Ford F-150 gets a combined Avg MPG of 19.42 with a 0.38 MPG margin of error.
You restricted it to crew cabs. This is for all 2.7s: "Based on data from 76 vehicles, 890 fuel-ups and 313,261 miles of driving, the 2018 Ford F-150 gets a combined Avg MPG of 18.34 with a 0.22 MPG margin of error. "

Still good MPG for a big truck with a strong motor.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
The Cummins R2.8 does not come with everything you need to swap it in. You’ll need to provide your own cooling and inter cooling solutions though they do offer affordable recommendations like using an inter cooler from a pt cruiser. The most expensive piece is the adapters needed to mate it to your transmission of choice plus clutch or flex plate/Torque converter and mounting options for it all.
I took it for granted that everyone understood that certain things (transmission adapters, cooling, driveline refurbishment) would need to be addressed with such an engine swap.

When I said everything was provided by the 2.8l crate kit, I was meaning that everything for the engine installation itself (excepting mounting brackets and transmission adapters) was addressed with this kit, whereas many other crate engines being sold only give you an engine (all the other accessories and wiring need to be bought separately).

Semantics aside, it is impressive what comes with this kit.


You restricted it to crew cabs. This is for all 2.7s: "Based on data from 76 vehicles, 890 fuel-ups and 313,261 miles of driving, the 2018 Ford F-150 gets a combined Avg MPG of 18.34 with a 0.22 MPG margin of error. "

Still good MPG for a big truck with a strong motor.
I agree that mpg is good for a 1/2 ton truck. I think the point some people were making is that Ford's ecoboost engines don't provide a significant advantage over other gasoline engine types (v8's) in realistic driving conditions. I'm sure there are some owners who have been able to squeeze out 22 or more mpg on flat, open highway. But for stop-and-go, towing, heavy or even moderate payloads and mods, all these 1/2 ton's seem to get about the same mpg, regardless of whether or not the engine has a turbo.
 
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Dalko43

Explorer
Believe I feel about the 2.8 the same way you feel about converting to an OZ style flat bed. Don't see the point.
I'd totally be up for an Aussie-style flatbed....if the cost was reasonable. Maybe those flatbeds will become more common in the future and the cost will come down...at which point I'd totally consider one. But spending thousands of $, over $10k in some cases, to replace a brand new and very functional pickup bed with an Aussie-tray makes little sense to me.

To be fair, I've no interest in transplanting a 2.8l Cummins into a brand new vehicle either. If I had a catastrophic engine failure outside of warranty, I would consider that swap. But I wouldn't yank a functioning gasoline engine out of a new truck and replace it with another engine (gasoline or diesel). That just doesn't make sense. Putting a crate engine into an older 4x4 vehicle makes sense, in my view, because you're trying to improve or refurbish an old platform. You're not necessarily going to recoup the cost of the engine swap, but the performance gains make it easier to justify in the subjective sense.

As @AlexCold points out, there is no financial justification for doing an engine swap. Even going as cheap as possible (a used junkyard engine) is going to cost you money that you'll never make back.


If you're gonna do a completely different engine swap, for the money think you're better off swapping in a LS or EcoBoost (that is if you want a brandy new engine) and aren't a cheap SOB like me. ;):)
LS swaps are a dime-a-dozen. I also think those engines are better-suited in a track car or muscle car than they are in an old 4x4.

The ecoboost would make for an interesting engine swap. I don't think it would be all that much cheaper than a 2.8l crate Cummins and wouldn't be as efficient for turning tires and carrying a load, but it would still be interesting nonetheless. The new Jeep JL with the turbo inline 4 gasser has my attention for that reason.
 
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rruff

Explorer
I agree that mpg is good for a 1/2 ton truck. I think the point some people were making is that Ford's ecoboost engines don't provide a significant advantage over other gasoline engine types (v8's) in realistic driving conditions.
No argument there. I noticed that when researching trucks; some models seem to "game" the EPA better than others. Some people believe in miracles I guess.

Still according to fuelly, the 5.0L averages 16.44mpg vs 18.34 for the 2.7L, so greater than 10% improvement with comparable performance. That would save you about $1900 in 100k miles at today's gas prices.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
I'd totally be up for an Aussie-style flatbed....if the cost was reasonable. Maybe those flatbeds will become more common in the future and the cost will come down...at which point I'd totally consider one. But spending thousands of $, over $10k in some cases, to replace a brand new and very functional pickup bed with an Aussie-tray makes little sense to me.

To be fair, I've no interest in transplanting a 2.8l Cummins into a brand new vehicle either. If I had a catastrophic engine failure outside of warranty, I would consider that swap. But I wouldn't yank a functioning gasoline engine out of a new truck and replace it with another engine (gasoline or diesel). That just doesn't make sense. Putting a crate engine into an older 4x4 vehicle makes sense, in my view, because you're trying to improve or refurbish an old platform. You're not necessarily going to recoup the cost of the engine swap, but the performance gains make it easier to justify in the subjective sense.
About the same point I am with the OZ Utes...does the convenience out weigh the cost? That would be a no. Same thought it about the 2.8 Cummins...do the gains, over what I have in there now, justify the cost. I have rebuilt just about everything on the under-carriage of my Tacoma...the engine is the next thing to fail...and when it does, what is the best option for the price.

Maybe if it could be done for $5-6K and pushed the mpg to 35-40 (which isn't going to happen) I would consider it. Way it is now, only marginal gains at a price, that you should probably buy a whole new truck at that point.

Even if I was restoring an old truck or Land Cruiser...the 2.8 isn't quite enough. If you're going through the trouble and expense...might as put something in there that you can have some fun with. The 2.8 is an expensive sensible engine...who wants expensive and sensible!? Effe that! ;) I want to turn and burn!


LS swaps are a dime-a-dozen. I also think those engines are better-suited in a track car or muscle car than they are in an old 4x4.

The ecoboost would make for an interesting engine swap. I don't think it would be all that much cheaper than a 2.8l crate Cummins and wouldn't be as efficient for turning tires and carrying a load, but it would still be interesting nonetheless. The new Jeep JL with the turbo inline 4 gasser has my attention for that reason.
Don't think the Ecoboost would be any cheaper, however the torque with a 2.7 does jump to 400 FT LBS...which is about perfect for a 4WD truck or SUV.

Though for an old Land Cruiser, would do a L96 over the Cummins or Eco. Really don't want to mess with turbos.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/l96


And that is the nice thing about a GM engine, since they are a dime a dozen...everything is well sorted and beyond. Not so with the Cummins...no adaptors for Toyotas available currently, have to have it custom made.
 
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Dalko43

Explorer
Even if I was restoring an old truck or Land Cruiser...the 2.8 isn't quite enough. If you're going through the trouble and expense...might as put something in there that you can have some fun with. The 2.8 is an expensive sensible engine...who wants expensive and sensible!?
It's enough. The OEM turbo diesel in the overseas FJ80's produced about the same amount of HP and torque. All the Hilux's and many other overseas pickups are set up with torquey inline 4 diesels...they'd be considered "under-powered" by North American standards, but they work very well and provide far better efficiency than anything we get (perhaps excluding the new 2.8l Duramax).

If you want to do burn-out's get a different engine, or maybe get a RWD sports car....I don't want a 4x4 that goes fast. I want one with good torque delivery and half decent mpg's. Torque (which is really a reflection of how the horsepower is delivered) is for work. High peak horsepower is for fun. I'll sacrifice a little bit of fun for better working characteristics any day of the week.


Don't think the Ecoboost would be any cheaper, however the torque with a 2.7 does jump to 400 FT LBS...which is about perfect for a 4WD truck or SUV.

Though for an old Land Cruiser, would do a L96 over the Cummins or Eco. Really don't want to mess with turbos.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/l96


And that is the nice thing about a GM engine, since they are a dime a dozen...everything is well sorted and beyond. Not so with the Cummins...no adaptors for Toyotas available currently, have to have it custom made.
GM's crate offerings do have great integration options, but then again they've been around for much longer than has the 2.8l Cummins. Give it time.

Also, once you start pricing out everything needed to complete that 6.0l engine, you'll be close to the price you're paying for the Cummins.

New, OEM crate engines cost a lot...no question about that.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
It's enough. The OEM turbo diesel in the overseas FJ80's produced about the same amount of HP and torque. All the Hilux's and many other overseas pickups are set up with torquey inline 4 diesels...they'd be considered "under-powered" by North American standards, but they work very well and provide far better efficiency than anything we get (perhaps excluding the new 2.8l Duramax).

If you want to do burn-out's get a different engine, or maybe get a RWD sports car....I don't want a 4x4 that goes fast. I want one with good torque delivery and half decent mpg's. Torque (which is really a reflection of how the horsepower is delivered) is for work. High peak horsepower is for fun. I'll sacrifice a little bit of fun for better working characteristics any day of the week.
I am sure it is adequate, if I am going to go through all the hassle of doing a swap...me personally need a little more. I am not a power hungry type of person either...just doing a engine replacement is a huge pain in the ass. A swap is a whole other can of worms...for all the trouble, it better have some kick. I don't need to do burnouts, but when I step on it, it better excite my nether regions.


I mean, didn't Stoffregen Motorsports yanked out a Merc diesel from FJ60, and drop a LS in its' place.... I thought a diesel in a 60 was the Holy Grail.


There is a 3.8 coming yeah? Maybe that will have little more output.




GM's crate offerings do have great integration options, but then again they've been around for much longer than has the 2.8l Cummins. Give it time.

Also, once you start pricing out everything needed to complete that 6.0l engine, you'll be close to the price you're paying for the Cummins.

New, OEM crate engines cost a lot...no question about that.

I am sure more adaptors will come out. And that is the other thing the GM's have long been proven, yet another reason they are a dime a dozen. These new Chinese built 2.8's, the jury is still out on them...I want to see them with 100-200K in them and see how they are fairing.

For the price, you're getting a lot more engine with the GM over the Cummins. And I know you'll hate this next statement, since they are a dime a dozen...can be had for cheap on the salvage market. No reason to buy new.

I am just new seeing a case be made for the 2.8 both financially and performance-wise when there are so many other options out there. All I see is a marketing effort by Cummins to sell these things.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Still according to fuelly, the 5.0L averages 16.44mpg vs 18.34 for the 2.7L, so greater than 10% improvement with comparable performance. That would save you about $1900 in 100k miles at today's gas prices.
Not to worry, that cost savings will be eaten up when those turbos go belly up when it is out of warranty. ;)
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I mean, didn't Stoffregen Motorsports yanked out a Merc diesel from FJ60, and drop a LS in its' place.... I thought a diesel in a 60 was the Holy Grail.


There is a 3.8 coming yeah? Maybe that will have little more output.
Those older Mercedes diesels are notoriously underpowered, even for diesels. They're not ideal for swaps into 4x4's.

The diesels made by Toyota and other OEM's are in fact well-suited to 4x4's....that's why people in North America will pay +$20k for 20 year old, hand-me-down Japanese diesel LC's.


For the price, you're getting a lot more engine with the GM over the Cummins. And I know you'll hate this next statement, since they are a dime a dozen...can be had for cheap on the salvage market. No reason to buy new.
That depends on your definition of "more." Some people want horsepower....others want low-end torque and efficiency.

And again, you can get 4bt's and 3.8l Cummins for cheap on the salvage market too....you get what you pay for. You pay more for a brand new OEM engine, but you're also avoiding a lot of uncertainty and risk.


I am sure more adaptors will come out. And that is the other thing the GM's have long been proven, yet another reason they are a dime a dozen. These new Chinese built 2.8's, the jury is still out on them...I want to see them with 100-200K in them and see how they are fairing.
Chinese-built? You really had to get that final knife jab didn't you? It's an American design, as with all of Cummins' products. And I'm fairly certain Cummins is doing additional prep-work and quality control as the engines come into North America.

The production origins perhaps matter to a degree, but shouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a given product. After all, many North American trucks, and even some Toyota's, are made in Mexico....ahem...Tacoma anyone?


I am just new seeing a case be made for the 2.8 both financially and performance-wise when there are so many other options out there. All I see is a marketing effort by Cummins to sell these things.
If you're trying to justify an engine swap "financially," then I don't think Cummins, or any OEM, is worried about marketing themselves to you.

You have to expand your horizons a bit. We have a plethora of engine options to choose from in the current market. For the people who actually want to buy and build project 4x4's, that's a good thing.
 
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DT75FLH

Adventurer
and you could buy an entire all-aluminum 3.5 engine assembly with the turbos for 5,000, and that is from Ford
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Those older Mercedes diesels are notoriously underpowered, even for diesels. They're not ideal for swaps into 4x4's.

The diesels made by Toyota and other OEM's are in fact well-suited to 4x4's....that's why people in North America will pay +$20k for 20 year old, hand-me-down Japanese diesel LC's.
Those 20 year old diesel LC's are slugs too, People buy those old LC's. Which are 25 years old because of our import laws, and to my knowledge there weren't any Japanese diesels in the US market 20 years ago, last ones available here were mid 80's, anyways....people buy those because of the coolness factor. The same reason people build up classic cars and trucks..because it is cool. Not necessarily better.

Have you driven an old Japanese diesel? They are painfully slow. And that is coming from a guy who drives like an old man and doesn't exceed the speed limit.




That depends on your definition of "more." Some people want horsepower....others want low-end torque and efficiency.

And again, you can get 4bt's and 3.8l Cummins for cheap on the salvage market too....you get what you pay for. You pay more for a brand new OEM engine, but you're also avoiding a lot of uncertainty and risk.

You get more torque and horsepower with the LS, over the 2.8 plus you can get an easy 20 mpg of them. The 2.8 people are getting no more than 25. An extra 5 mpg isn't all that much compared to what you loose in tq/hp and cost. It doesn't make any sense to spend all that money to only be slightly more efficient. The gains just aren't there. It is similar when I was considering of putting solar on my house. It was going to cost me $25K. It would take 25-26 years to pay for itself.

Again the Cummins has only a 90 warranty. Where I can get a salvage engine with a 1 year warranty. Who is taking the bigger risk?




Chinese-built? You really had to get that final knife jab didn't you? It's an American design, as with all of Cummins' products. And I'm fairly certain Cummins is doing additional prep-work and quality control as the engines come into North America.

The production origins perhaps matter to a degree, but shouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a given product. After all, many North American trucks, and even some Toyota's, are made in Mexico....ahem...Tacoma anyone?

That engine has yet to prove itself is what I am getting at. Where-as a LS or JDM even though used pretty good chance it will easily go 200K.

And yes, not happy about Toyota trucks being built in Mexico or the US. Much rather have it built in Japan. There is no doubt a 4Runner is better built than a Tacoma.


If you're trying to justify an engine swap "financially," then I don't think Cummins, or any OEM, is worried about marketing themselves to you.

You have to expand your horizons a bit. We have a plethora of engine options to choose from in the current market. For the people who actually want to buy and build project 4x4's, that's a good thing.
No they are not. Some guys like to brag on how much they spend, I like to brag on how much I don't... :) Believe that comes from being self employed, I view things as "ok, how much money am I going to loose on this purchase?" Some people view vehicles as investments. I view them as liabilities. For me it all about the bottom line, how much is it going to cut into my profits?

Think because I already went through the customizing car phase when I was younger...not much into project vehicles anymore...much rather spend it on travel and exploring than wrenching in the garage. I have done my fair share of wrenching...and well, I am over it. More time I am in the garage the less time I am on the trail. Which that is what I have to do today....toss new brake pads on the truck, and rebuild the forks on the dirt bike...so I can go riding tomorrow. Trying to drag myself out into the garage...but it isn't working... :D

I have expanded my horizons and what I saw is bullchit, do believe any engine swap no matter what it is, is kinda foolish. And ultimately don't care....makes for some entertaining arguing on the intergooglemachine though!
 
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Clutch

<---Pass
I thought the same thing when I purchased my EcoBoost so before I purchased it I checked prices, you can get the entire turbocharger assembly for $570.

Which I think is cheap for the whole assy.

https://www.fordpartsshop.com/v-201...5l-v6-gas/engine--turbocharger-and-components
Not bad! Still would stick with the 5.0...and in all reality the NA V6 is all I need....you can grab a bare bones F150 4WD NA V6 for sub $25K. If you look at the payload and towing specs it is real close to a Tacoma. Can't really touch a Tacoma for less than $30K these days.

Or even better... butt ugly as they may be....I have found V8 Nissan Titans in the sub $25K range. As you can tell with my discussion with Dalko...I am all about not spending money.
 
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