2nd Generation Tundra: 4.6 vs 5.7 advice

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
So... you’re not going to answer my questions, again? K. Gotcha.

Funny how you claim to know so much about me and then take the position that your beliefs cannot be known... all from posts. That’s a great parlor trick.
What question?
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Read. Quests end with a symbol that looks like: “?”
Do you mean question? Not quest?
Why do they use a “wet noodle” for a frame?
Well it’s not a wet noodle. Soooo. Go get a boxed frame truck and go away. But that’s impossible isn’t it? You can’t control yourself. Whenever you see this subject come up you have to display your hatred. You’re little feelings were hurt once weren’t they?

 

rruff

Explorer
And I’ll ask again... why does every other mfg NOT use a wet noodle for a frame in their 1/2 ton trucks?
Is this the question you want answered?

They all used to spec "wet noodle" frames on their 1/2 tons, and not that long ago. And Toyotas used to be boxed. More than anything it's a fad. Ford got a lot of marketing mileage from touting the stiffness of their frames and showing carefully crafted situations where it was better.

But they've backtracked a bit in recent years. The F150 is no longer fully boxed: https://www.google.com/search?q=f150+drop+fully+boxed+frame&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

If a frame is torsionally too stiff you run the risk of permanently bending it in crossed up situations with a high load. You can make a more flexible frame lighter for the same load capacity, and it will ride better in some situations. A softer ride is the most likely reason why Toyota went to more flexible frames for the US market.

The Tundra frame is boxed in the front, heavy closed C in the middle (from the rear of the engine to the front leaf pivot), and light open C in the rear.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
F450 and above still uses c channel. Las time I checked an f450 is heavier duty than an f350. I could be wrong.
I believe the F450 still has a boxed frame. Some of the chassis variants of the Super Duty still use C-channel, but according to Ford, that's to allow for easier modifications for contractor and commercial applications. All of Ford's literature has emphasized that their new boxed frame is stronger and more robust than the previous c-channel versions.


Were any of the domestic trucks boxed until a few years ago? Toyota pickup frames *were* boxed until around 20 years ago. I think the foreign Hilux still is. They went in the opposite direction of the domestics for some reason.

Bottom line is that for lighter duty trucks you can do it either way. I'd prefer boxed, mostly because I then would not have to accommodate frame twist in my camper design, which mounts directly to the frame.
The domestic trucks have been boxing their frames since at least 10 years ago, if not earlier (Ford's Super Duty was the main exception until just recently). Toyota still boxes their frames on all of their 4x4's and pickup's (the North America-produced Tacoma and Tundra/Sequoia being the only exceptions). I suspect cost and weight savings are the main reasons behind Toyota's decision with those 2 platforms.

And your point about frame twist with heavy loads illustrates exactly why most pickups (whether they be HD or not) should have boxed frames. A big commerical truck driving along a mostly flat road is fine with a c-channel. For a Power Wagon or comparable 3/4 ton carrying a camper on a rough 4wd road, the boxed frame makes more sense.

That said, both of Toyota's C-channel pickup's are well made and reliable. I wouldn't refrain from buying one simply because of their frame design. I just wish Toyota would follow the example of all the other truck makers.


They all used to spec "wet noodle" frames on their 1/2 tons, and not that long ago. And Toyotas used to be boxed. More than anything it's a fad. Ford got a lot of marketing mileage from touting the stiffness of their frames and showing carefully crafted situations where it was better.

But they've backtracked a bit in recent years. The F150 is no longer fully boxed: https://www.google.com/search?q=f150+drop+fully+boxed+frame&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

If a frame is torsionally too stiff you run the risk of permanently bending it in crossed up situations with a high load. You can make a more flexible frame lighter for the same load capacity, and it will ride better in some situations. A softer ride is the most likely reason why Toyota went to more flexible frames for the US market.
No, just no.

F-150's still use boxed frames:
http://thenewswheel.com/2015-ford-f-150-frame-creates-better-performance-toughness-efficiency/
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2017/11/fords-f-150-frame-extenders-look-sturdy.html

The fully boxed method is not a fad. Pretty much all trucks, from mid-sized to 1 ton's, do use that method with the exception of the 2 North-American pickup's Toyota makes.

It is not the frame's job to flex and allow for better ride; that's the suspension's job. The only vehicle that has a frame which was specifically designed to flex is the Unimog. All other vehicles have frame flex to varying degrees, but that's an inherent compromise that engineers have to deal with.

If a boxed frame is well-made, and the proper payload is observed, the frame will not bend or break. Of course, I've heard of broken frames, but it certainly isn't a common trend with modern frames, whether they be c-channel or boxed.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
I believe the F450 still has a boxed frame. Some of the chassis variants of the Super Duty still use C-channel, but according to Ford, that's to allow for easier modifications for contractor and commercial applications. All of Ford's literature has emphasized that their new boxed frame is stronger and more robust than the previous c-channel versions.




The domestic trucks have been boxing their frames since at least 10 years ago, if not earlier (Ford's Super Duty was the main exception until just recently). Toyota still boxes their frames on all of their 4x4's and pickup's (the North America-produced Tacoma and Tundra/Sequoia being the only exceptions). I suspect cost and weight savings are the main reasons behind Toyota's decision with those 2 platforms.

And your point about frame twist with heavy loads illustrates exactly why most pickups (whether they be HD or not) should have boxed frames. A big commerical truck driving along a mostly flat road is fine with a c-channel. For a Power Wagon or comparable 3/4 ton carrying a camper on a rough 4wd road, the boxed frame makes more sense.

That said, both of Toyota's C-channel pickup's are well made and reliable. I wouldn't refrain from buying one simply because of their frame design. I just wish Toyota would follow the example of all the other truck makers.




No, just no.

F-150's still use boxed frames:
http://thenewswheel.com/2015-ford-f-150-frame-creates-better-performance-toughness-efficiency/
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2017/11/fords-f-150-frame-extenders-look-sturdy.html

The fully boxed method is not a fad. Pretty much all trucks, from mid-sized to 1 ton's, do use that method with the exception of the 2 North-American pickup's Toyota makes.

It is not the frame's job to flex and allow for better ride; that's the suspension's job. The only vehicle that has a frame which was specifically designed to flex is the Unimog. All other vehicles have frame flex to varying degrees, but that's an inherent compromise that engineers have to deal with.

If a boxed frame is well-made, and the proper payload is observed, the frame will not bend or break. Of course, I've heard of broken frames, but it certainly isn't a common trend with modern frames, whether they be c-channel or boxed.
A unimog that carries an insane payload off-road uses a c channel. It is a fad. It’s a selling point. Every manufacturer makes the claim they have the stiffest frame.
FYI
https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/brochures/2017/17_ChassisCab_Online.pdf
 
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Dalko43

Explorer
A unimog that carries an insane payload off-road uses a c channel. It is a fad. It's a selling point. Every manufacturer makes the claim they have the stiffest frame.
Have you read about the Unimog's chassis design or looked at any pictures? The way that frame is designed to flex is unlike anything else on the market. So you're comparing apples to oranges.

For most conventional trucks, the frame is designed to be stiff, with minimal flex, so that the suspension can do its job. Manufacturers have been using that design for well over 10 years, in some cases longer. The longevity of this design "fad" seems to indicate that it isn't really a fad at all.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
Yep, I addressed that earlier when I noted that Super Duty Chassis variants still used c-channel to allow for easier modifications. And if you actually read the PDF, you'll see that Ford's literature confirms that:

An Open C-Channel Frame aft of cab features a standard 34" frame-rail width, and Auxiliary Frame Extensions allow easy body and vocational equipment upfits.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Have you read about the Unimog's chassis design or looked at any pictures? The way that frame is designed to flex is unlike anything else on the market. So you're comparing apples to oranges.

For most conventional trucks, the frame is designed to be stiff, with minimal flex, so that the suspension can do its job. Manufacturers have been using that design for well over 10 years, in some cases longer. The longevity of this design "fad" seems to indicate that it isn't really a fad at all.
I have a unimog. I was using as an example. The tundras frame is designed to flex. Well considering that trucks for what 80 years did not use boxed frame and only the last 10 years started. It’s a fad.
 

toylandcruiser

Expedition Leader
Yep, I addressed that earlier when I noted that Super Duty Chassis variants still used c-channel to allow for easier modifications. And if you actually read the PDF, you'll see that Ford's literature confirms that:
You stated both. You stated you believe ford used boxed on the f450. Then the next sentence you said they use c channel in some. The literature doesn’t say anything about it being fully boxed.
 

bkg

Explorer
Do you mean question? Not quest?
Why do they use a “wet noodle” for a frame?
Well it’s not a wet noodle. Soooo. Go get a boxed frame truck and go away. But that’s impossible isn’t it? You can’t control yourself. Whenever you see this subject come up you have to display your hatred. You’re little feelings were hurt once weren’t they?

You are definitely one of a kind. I’ll yive you that.

I’ve asked you numerous questions in this thread which you have ignored, so you clearly have zero interest in any form of discussion other than your continued attempts to condescend.

Go back and answer my questions. Just try. It could be good for you.
 

bkg

Explorer
Have you read about the Unimog's chassis design or looked at any pictures? The way that frame is designed to flex is unlike anything else on the market. So you're comparing apples to oranges.

For most conventional trucks, the frame is designed to be stiff, with minimal flex, so that the suspension can do its job. Manufacturers have been using that design for well over 10 years, in some cases longer. The longevity of this design "fad" seems to indicate that it isn't really a fad at all.
When the body floats, like a unimog, semi, etc... the frame flex isn’t transferred to the body, so the mfg can allow and design in more flex.

Not necessarily the same on a pickup, which you elude to. Which is why I continue to wonder why people insist on comparing the Toyota frame design only to vehicles outside of its competitive class... and then get all upset when someone points out that no other mfg’s (in class) seem to agree with toyota’s Design.
 

MotoDave

Explorer
Boy you guys know how to detail a thread.

I'll add my $0.02 as an owner of a 2012 Tundra with the 4.6 and a FWC Hawk. Get whatever engine makes you happy, neither engine is lacking power to haul the load you're talking about. The 4.6 does get 1-2 mpg better than the 5.7, which was relevant to me. Dont expect either to get what the sticker says once you add larger tires and lift.

The suspension is soft, but so are all 1/2 ton trucks now to get the ride everyone expects, so plan on doing something. Airbags work, so do leaf spring replacements. My advice would be Firestone airbags, with an understanding that you no longer have a bump stop so you need to drive with that in mind.

They are really solid trucks, but getting to be pretty out of date compared to the rest of the market.
 
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