2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[Jurfie]

I thought Mercedes did a good job with the new G wagen.

Yes, you're right. If MB could get past the pedestrian-safety rules to maintain that front end, I don't see how JLR couldn't have made the new Defender's nose look a bit more like the previous-gen.

Mind you, I don't have $135k (Canadian) for a base model G-Class... ?

 

[uzj100]

Some of the best discussion in some time. Keep it coming. The new G in person is weird looking. Very wide and looks barely off the ground. Similar to the new gladiator. You can tell with that 137 inch wheelbase it was built for a lift and 37s out of the box. Gladiator on 37s is one of the best looking vehicles out today. I see all the different sides of this discussion. However they will have to prove themselves and that is about 5 years of use. I believe they will sell very well.

 

[nickw]

I thought Mercedes did a good job with the new G wagen.

I'd agree, they are slick....but starting at $125k USD is painful, 2x the cost of a Defender (if not more)....

 

[nickw]

Other than Jeep with the Wrangler; who?

I'm not even sure the Jeep Wrangler meets his requirements....he's probably talking 70 series, but even then, manual steering...we are back to the 1970's...

 

[onemanarmy]

Mechanical linkage steering, power. Trusted, [proven, cheap, dependable, easy to fix. No drive by wire, electric pumps and ECUs/Servos controlling steering control, as we are seeing now.

The Wrangler is a great example of how to keep the heritage and name while making a brand new modern truck. Perfect? No, but its pretty good. They even still offer a manual trans! Oh the horror!

 

[Todd n Natalie]

Yes, you're right. If MB could get past the pedestrian-safety rules to maintain that front end, I don't see how JLR couldn't have made the new Defender's nose look a bit more like the previous-gen.

Mind you, I don't have $135k (Canadian) for a base model G-Class... ?

Lol, nor do I. Just thought they did a good job on it. Interesting comparo here speaking of Land Rover, G-wagons and Jeeps.... Yes I know it was a Disco and not a Defender. I found it interesting regardless...

Lexus LX vs. Jeep Wrangler vs. Mercedes-Benz G-Class vs. Land Rover Discovery - MotorTrend

We test four legendary off-roaders, the Jeep Wrangler, Land Rover Discovery, Lexus LX, and G-Class, to find out which is best in the city and on the trails.

www.motortrend.com

 

[nickw]

Mechanical linkage steering, power. Trusted, [proven, cheap, dependable, easy to fix. No drive by wire, electric pumps and ECUs/Servos controlling steering control, as we are seeing now.

The Wrangler is a great example of how to keep the heritage and name while making a brand new modern truck. Perfect? No, but its pretty good. They even still offer a manual trans! Oh the horror!

I hear ya but I have just come to accept tech and appreciate it for what it is. This thing also a brake-by-wire setup....if you didn't think the steering thing was sketchy enough

 

[Victory_Overland]

Agreed on the quality of overseas diesel and of course NAS diesel has it's own emissions limitations when it comes to what is best for the engine. I won't win the argument with anyone over the HP/TQ/Range aspects just know that my D3 is a full on adventure wagon now and when I'm offload I'm extremely limited to range and when I'm in trail configuration. I'm usually in the 10mpg range (if I'm lucky; getting to the trail) making extra fuel on board an absolute necessity and that does not include my emergency fuel supply I don't touch except in emergency. So if performance/range and all being said is comparable from 4cyl to 6cyl, then JLR would not have made it an option and made it standard; I give them more credit than that! That extra 100hp and 110ish ft/lbs of torque makes an exponential difference. Is 300/300 and 400/400 great for Petrol; Yes.....but wait for the mileage you really would see. A comparable diesel with less ponies and equal torque (most likely greater) will get you double the range (FACT) and that is my only point!

Someone mentioned their D5 getting 600 miles to a tank on a $2.5k upgrade from Petrol option; NUFF SAID! I'm getting 1/3 of that and I'll bet the Defender Petrol is no different unless you get the super sexy 6cyl that shuts down cylinders, changes tune and all that crazy sexy stuff to get the 20mpg on the freeway which is great and why its $12k more. I seriously hope I'm wrong and we see fantastic numbers out of the petrol 4-banger in Defender configuration; I really hope I am wrong!

Like I said, when the 4cyl diesel shows up, I'm a player in the NAS market because North/Central/South American will be my areas and I need more MPG to match that HP/TQ/$$$$. I've been saying more people need a 4cyl diesel like Cummins R2.8 and it fits the bill for just about every application.

I'll digress!

 

[Thorsten]

Off-road capability might be similar, but it won't have anywhere near the towing or payload. GC's are nice, though, especially the trailhawk with air suspension. You can get one loaded for about the starting price of a Defender (which comes pretty well outfitted, to be fair).

Good points on payload & towing. Looks like the max Defender towing is about 1,000 pounds higher (8200 vs 7200). Of course the current Grand Cherokee platform (WK2) is nearing a decade old at this point, so it will be interesting to see what they do with the all-new one coming out in 2021. I know they will have both two and three row (longer wheels base) variants this time -- competition is a great thing. I wish they had unveiled more about the Defender 130 this week though. Sounds like same wheel base as 110 but with more rear overhang.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

Good points on payload & towing. Looks like the max Defender towing is about 1,000 pounds higher (8200 vs 7200). Of course the current Grand Cherokee platform (WK2) is nearing a decade old at this point, so it will be interesting to see what they do with the all-new one coming out in 2021. I know they will have both two and three row (longer wheels base) variants this time -- competition is a great thing. I wish they had unveiled more about the Defender 130 this week though. Sounds like same wheel base as 110 but with more rear overhang.

I wonder if the coming Wagoneer would be more of an equal comparison. Guess we have to wait and see...

 

[nickw]

A comparable diesel with less ponies and equal torque (most likely greater) will get you double the range (FACT) and that is my only point!

We could compare two rigs now that are similar, the Colorado 2.8L diesel and the Ranger 2.3L EB, modern diesel vs modern small displacement turbo. While there is no arguing the diesel gets better mileage, it's nowhere near double. We are talking 19-23 MPG vs 25-29 MPG, which works out to be 4-5 MPG difference. Remove all the emissions stuff from the diesel and you probably in the low 30's, but sadly, those times are long gone.

 

[Thorsten]

I wonder if the coming Wagoneer would be more of an equal comparison. Guess we have to wait and see...

I believe both the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer are both going to be based on the new 5th gen RAM 1500s (released in 2019), and should have IFS with a solid rear axle. If you go by the new RAM 1500 payload (~2,300) and towing figures (max 12,750lbs), it bodes well for the Wagoneer(s) as a foundational starting point. In terms of size though they might be better compared to the upcoming Defender 130.

You see a good number of LR Discoveries on this forum and others like it. With this new Defender, for the people buying new vehicles with our interests -- is there still a compelling case for the Discovery? Some of you have brought up price for a used Disco vs new Defender... but strictly buying new -- why would adventure minded folks choose the Disco over this new Defender going forward? Thoughts?

 

[Bobzdar]

I hear this poorly thought out argument a lot.

No is the answer.

Make a Defender. Update it with current materials, modern design, engineering, and manufacturing standards. (cheaper, lighter, stronger, etc). Use a proven, time tested, reliable engine and trans combo. No turbo or hybrid or the need to harvest energy when slowing down. We want easy to maintain and reliable with this model. Put the AC compressor and alternator up top. Give it a manual T case with 4.1 gear set. Cable lockers. Mechanical steering and a throttle cable. Put a separate screen in for the backup cam to appease the safety nazis, so when it quits working, it can be taken out or easily replaced. Removable top and doors. No vehicle is perfect, but slapping a bunch of tech onto a vehicle designed for rugged off road use is not a good recipe.

What we have here is JLR over complicating a proven truck that shares nothing with a 'Defender' except for a flat rear door.

I guess I see your point, and the below is a good barometer.

I tried outfitting a Jeep similarly to the Defender. Basically that's an Unlimited Sahara with the turbo 4, automatic and LED light package (all standard on the Defender). It cost $44k for perspective and doesn't have a few things the Defender has (like power front seats). The most basic Wrangler Unlimited Sport runs around $33k with manual everything except brakes and steering (windows, locks, transmission etc). So given similar pricing, a Defender could potentially be as cheap as $40k, if they thought they could sell enough to make it worth tooling up manual windows, manual transfer case, manual trans, NA motor (v6) etc. Would it be worth saving $10k? Not to me. Would they sell more than a handful? Doubtful.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

I believe both the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer are both going to be based on the new 5th gen RAM 1500s (released in 2019), and should have IFS with a solid rear axle. If you go by the new RAM 1500 payload (~2,300) and towing figures (max 12,750lbs), it bodes well for the Wagoneer(s) as a foundational starting point. In terms of size though they might be better compared to the upcoming Defender 130.

You see a good number of LR Discoveries on this forum and others like it. With this new Defender, for the people buying new vehicles with our interests -- is there still a compelling case for the Discovery? Some of you have brought up price for a used Disco vs new Defender... but strictly buying new -- why would adventure minded folks choose the Disco over this new Defender going forward? Thoughts?

I've read the Ram based Wagoneer mules have been spotted have had IRS.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/26/jeep-grand-wagoneer-ram-test-mule-spy-photos/#slide-1284536

Good point on the Disco's relevancy now....

 

[Christian P.]

Lol, nor do I. Just thought they did a good job on it. Interesting comparo here speaking of Land Rover, G-wagons and Jeeps.... Yes I know it was a Disco and not a Defender. I found it interesting regardless...

Lexus LX vs. Jeep Wrangler vs. Mercedes-Benz G-Class vs. Land Rover Discovery - MotorTrend

We test four legendary off-roaders, the Jeep Wrangler, Land Rover Discovery, Lexus LX, and G-Class, to find out which is best in the city and on the trails.

www.motortrend.com

Todd,

People keeps bringing back the G-Wagen as an example. Last Sunday I drove from Quebec to Boston and stopped near the border in Vermont for refueling.

The Dodge dealer had a G-Wagen for sale, which is a bit unusual for that corner of the country. I went over to look at it, just for fun....

Used 2014 Mercedes-Benz G-Class G63 AMG All-wheel Drive For Sale in Newport, VT | VIN# WDCYC7DF3EX215382

Used 2014 Mercedes-Benz G-Class SUV from Northpoint Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram in Newport, VT, 05855-9487. Call (802) 323-1695 for more information. | Stock# NJ19161A

www.northpointvt.com

$75K (+taxes) for a 2014 with 55000 miles, and the paint was already faded and there was rust coming out. The interior was also very so-so. At first I thought it was a 2004. I did not think it looked that good, and there is no way on earth I would pay $75K for that.



And the worst part is the fuel mileage...can you really live with 12/14 mpg?

Compared to that, the new Defender seems a lot more attractive.