2020 Defender Spy Shots....

Status
Not open for further replies.

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Recent articles are of JLR's 'cash crash' and a need for a $1 Billion dollar cash infusion. Now that the Range Rover SV Coupe and Discovery SVX have been cancelled I wouldn't be surprised to see other 'SVO' models like the Velar equivalent cancelled, maybe even the Velar itself. As today's Forbes article notes "Others criticize the Land Rover operation for undermining its own success by persisting with an overlapping product range which confuses buyers and cannibalizes profits. " That same article questions the ability of JLR management to execute on the needed rapid changes and that management changes are needed. Feels like the need for slash and burn of models and management.

Remember when Land Rover was planning on three distinct product lines - Range Rover, Discovery and Defender. Well the current incarnation of Range Rover and Discovery all look the same which speaks to the 'overlapping product range' issue driven by design management. The Discovery Sport is just a smaller Discovery. Does Land Rover need to reduce models (Velar, Discovery Sport) to free up cash for Defender and addressing overall quality issues? Probably. As for the Evoque, it does sell well to select consumer even though I have driven one as a loaner and would never buy one so on the bubble if that model needs to see the axe.

In summary more models to be discontinued and management / design direction changes are needed. Somewhat of a return to their roots similar to Ford.
 

J!m

Active member
This is pretty much how I see it as well.

They got so far out in the weeds, I guess banking on the China market?

They just opened the largest LR dealership in CT in North Haven... someone’s gonna be pissed if JLR packs it in!
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
...Well the current incarnation of Range Rover and Discovery all look the same which speaks to the 'overlapping product range' issue driven by design management. The Discovery Sport is just a smaller Discovery. Does Land Rover need to reduce models (Velar, Discovery Sport) to free up cash for Defender and addressing overall quality issues? Probably.

In summary more models to be discontinued and management / design direction changes are needed. Somewhat of a return to their roots similar to Ford.
The overlap they're referring to is between models such as the E-Pace and Evoque, the F-Pace and the Velar and the Disco Sport. When you talk to a dealer, they even tout the fact that they are mechanically identical under the sheet metal, they only differ in interior appointments and exterior design. So JLR have to maintain two different production lines to produce effectively the same vehicle. They're not body-on-frame, so you can't branch production near the end - you have to have two parallel lines much farther back in the production cycle. This is very expensive to maintain - in personnel and infrastructure. Then buyers are split - do I want an Evoque or an E-Pace? Velar or F-Pace? What's the difference? This results in sales cannibalism between models and divides revenue that must be applied to each product line. Jaguar is supposed to be near introducing the J-Pace, which would be based on the full-fat Range Rover. So add that to the list.

The Disco Sport and the Disco are very different - not even in the same league of vehicle. There's no buyer confusion between those models.

Does JLR need to reduce their offerings? Probably. I personally would like to see Jaguar become a valid Tesla competitor while the Land Rover side remain focused on ultraluxury, high performance SUVs (Range Rover) and off-road superiority (Land Rover).
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
The overlap they're referring to is between models such as the E-Pace and Evoque, the F-Pace and the Velar and the Disco Sport. When you talk to a dealer, they even tout the fact that they are mechanically identical under the sheet metal, they only differ in interior appointments and exterior design. ........ The Disco Sport and the Disco are very different - not even in the same league of vehicle. .............
I was speaking of the design language overlap. While features of the Discovery and Discovery Sport may be different, the styling is virtually the same. Agree the underlying platforms are different within a brand but leveraged across brands.

The 'design language' of the automotive industry for the SUV / CUV has collapsed to nearly identical. I really don't see how any manufacturer can differentiate themselves. Almost just a commodity. The smartphone industry is struggling with similar issues as high end models have now seen 2 or 3 price cuts in an attempt to drive sales. Apple and Jaguar have similar issues as they are seen as luxury brands. Technology in itself is commoditization.

Electrification may be a future technology but it will not drive volumes to serve the financial bottom line. Telsa is currently a money pit and would bury JLR and Tata. They are giving E-Paces away on Wheel of Fortune.

China auto sales continue to decline.

JLR/Tata's borrowing cost have soared. Wouldn't be surprised to see JLR partner with another brand and/or look for government assistance on the back of blaming "Brexit".
 
Last edited:

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Appears the issue is multi-fold. JLR financial planning based on China sales, Brexit, "Green" and a partnership with China’s Chery Automotive to manufacture product. The China market is in decline but JLR's sales issue is quality.

The Real Reason Why Jaguar Land Rover Has Money Problems
FEB 17 BY JAY TRAUGOTT

"......Automotive News Europe has uncovered what could turn out to be the real problem: quality control issues. .........

......Back in 2014, JLR began production at a joint venture with China’s Chery Automotive at a facility in eastern China. From 2015 to 2017, five JLR vehicles – the Land Rover Evoque and Discovery, and Jaguar XFL, XEL, and E-Pace – were assembled there for the Chinese market. Local production was very convenient for JLR because it allowed for necessary vehicle modifications for the Chinese market. JLR was also able to avoid paying a 25 percent tariff. Sales surged in China and things were looking good. Or so it seemed. .......

......A total of 106,000 vehicles were recalled, equivalent to over 70 percent of its 2017 sales. Again, all vehicles were built in China, so the argument JLR tried to make blaming US-China trade tensions doesn’t hold up. Furthermore, Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, Lexus, and even Cadillac posted solid sales growth in China last year.

To summarize, JLR’s reputation in China has taken a major hit because of ongoing quality issues that have yet to be resolved. ........"


Likely the quality issues are isolated to JLR/Chery.

As the article noted JLR/Tata needs $1Billion in cash quickly. So, if you happen to have some spare change you have an excellent investment opportunity!

JLR marketing is pushing hard in North America. Have never seen this many Jaguar or Land Rover commercials. Would think there are discounts to be had for those considering a new vehicle.
 
Andrew is so smart, he's said the same thing many of us have and I hope LR listens to him because if they do release it at high price, bagged out, electronic to the nine; he's absolutely right, zero new market entries for this vehicle.

"SEEN AS AN SUV, UNLESS IT ISN'T ONE!"----Andrew St. Pierre White

This is a great video IMO, just wish he did it last year or the year before so maybe his influence (he still has some) with LR would have been helpful.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Good perspective from Andrew. All the LR's look the same. Duh! If you can't work on it, modify it, "make it yours", its just another SUV/CUV with no passion. Jeep understands that. Land Rover? Not so much.

Have been paying more attention to what LR's I see on the road. Interestingly I have seen 2 LR2's in the last week. Many more DI's/DII's, some stock and some modified. Some LR3's/4's with very few if any modified. One Discovery 5, stock. A few RRS, all stock.
 

Jwestpro

Explorer
Appears the issue is multi-fold. JLR financial planning based on China sales, Brexit, "Green" and a partnership with China’s Chery Automotive to manufacture product. The China market is in decline but JLR's sales issue is quality.


As the article noted JLR/Tata needs $1Billion in cash quickly. So, if you happen to have some spare change you have an excellent investment opportunity!
Maybe an ok R/R on investment idea but I think NIO (chinese tesla but without the nonsense) might actually be the better investment risk.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Thinking it is a good time to negotiate with dealers if you are in the market for a Land Rover.

UK car exports to China fall by 72% in January
UK car exports to the European Union, the country's biggest international market, were down by 20% in the first month of 2019.
Sky News - Thursday 28 February 2019

"UK car production's troubles were compounded in January as the sector faced its eighth consecutive slump and exports to China plummeted by 72%.

Figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) showed a decline across both the domestic and international markets for British-made vehicles, as overall production fell by 18.2% year-on-year in the first month of 2019.............."

A recent Economist article noted - "Range Rovers are popular and the Evoque has been an unexpected success but the new Discovery and Velar have performed poorly. " which has been my observations based on Colorado Front Range sightings.
 
Last edited:

Jwestpro

Explorer
Maybe an ok R/R on investment idea but I think NIO (chinese tesla but without the nonsense) might actually be the better investment risk.
Monday after my post $NIO 8.40 low, Tuesday, HOD 10.64.... more than 25% gain LOL. Closed the week at 10. Nio, the Chinese Tesla is more likely to double in a year while Tesla is just as likely to be 50% lower.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top