2020 Defender Spy Shots....

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JeepColorado

Well-known member
And you're not driving a Unimog because?
Because I have to go to the grocery store occasionally and it wouldn't fit in my garage and a thousand other practical reasons- I've never said I want a specialized rock-crawler- I actually really don't care for rock crawling. The idea that a Wrangler is only good for rock crawling is one of the more superficial myths about Jeeps- can't say it enough to people who don't get it I guess- articulation, lockers, incredibly useful in a vast number of off-road situations. Granted they really shine on the rocks, but that certainly doesn't limit their advantage in other off-road situations where the terrain is uneven and rugged.

I also think something people are missing is the fun of the vehicle- taking the roof and doors off are a special experience- again, I like the slightly rougher ride- to me it's more true- it's more mechanical- no that doesn't mean I want to take that to an extreme and drive a tractor to work, but it does mean I like a more visceral experience when driving- I don't want to be numb to my surroundings- not the reason I get out into nature.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Because I have to go to the grocery store occasionally and it wouldn't fit in my garage and a thousand other practical reasons-
Ah, so you don't necessarily want the one that does best at rock crawling. You want a compromise as the rest of us, as we are not focused on rock crawling as the definition of "off road". You also admit that you want a car to do more than being simply focused on rock crawling. You know, compromise.


I've never said I want a specialized rock-crawler- I actually really don't care for rock crawling.
Yet you won't stop talking about how solid axles are good for rock crawling and since independent suspension doesn't have as much, it can't be good or even better "off road".

The idea that a Wrangler is only good for rock crawling is one of the more superficial myths about Jeeps- can't say it enough to people who don't get it I guess- articulation, lockers, incredibly useful in a vast number of off-road situations.
Yes, they are quite useful in other situations, as long as you don't lift them to get more articulation and bigger wheels all in an effort to do rock crawling better.
But in every one of those "other offf-road situations", a modern vehicle with traction control, independent suspension and whatnot will be better at anything more than crawling speeds.

I didn't say a wrangler was only good for rock crawling. I said that if you want something where you can get extreme articulation and weld shut the differential et al, you would be better of with a Wrangler because it is much simpler car to get those things.

Granted they really shine on the rocks, but that certainly doesn't limit their advantage in other off-road situations where the terrain is uneven and rugged.
I never said they "shine on the rocks". I said that if you want something dedicated to rock crawling with extreme articulation, a car like a Wrangler is the thing. Not because it is a good car, or because it shines, but because it is easier and cheap to modify for that kind of thing.

Apart from the cheaper price, it will never be as good as modern 4x4 with tc and independent suspension on any off road above crawling speeds.

I also think something people are missing is the fun of the vehicle- taking the roof and doors off are a special experience- again, I like the slightly rougher ride- to me it's more true- it's more mechanical- no that doesn't mean I want to take that to an extreme and drive a tractor to work, but it does mean I like a more visceral experience when driving- I don't want to be numb to my surroundings- not the reason I get out into nature.
Yes, doors that aren't there is certainly more out in the open, it also means more flex, more draught, and less comfort. As I said, a Wrangler is the perfect vehicle for you.

Me, I prefer doors, I prefer to be safer, I prefer to be more comfortable, and I prefer the better ride (i.e. actually have the wheels on the ground when going faster than crawling pace under any surface where more speed than crawling pace is possible. With a stiffer chassis, that is what you'll get.


If I want to feel nature I either ride my scooter (not a motorbike as I have a prosthetic leg on the shifter side), or I ride one of my bicycles.

Taking the doors and roof off and on sounds romantic, but only for short outings. Where do you leave it if travelling? It sounds like something you'd do for a sunday drive or to go rock crawling.

I don't want to take doors and roof on and off, and I certainly don't want to roll over in something without doors or roof. Not without a least a full roll-cage. But at that stage, we're back to über specialised vehicles and a lot more faff than I want to deal with on a daily basis. And being able to take it off certainly does nothing good for its capabilities off road. It means the chassis can't be made as safe and precise as it could be. But rock crawling, now there's a place where chassis flex is good thing. But only at super low speeds.
 
Good lord this thread has gone down the toilet. I don't understand why some folks can't say they're not thrilled with the new Defender without having a pitchfork and torch wielding mob come running out of the shadows. The look is polarizing at best, and I can completely understand why folks who love the old Defender are more than a bit skeptical of the new approach . . . there's not a lot of continuity there. Irrespective of capability (which remains to be seen - none of you have driven it yet, and the irony is strong for all of those who keep pointing to the Disco 5 as the baseline), philosophically it is a huge friggin departure from the glorified tractors of old. No frame, no soft top, all those electronics - this is quite a different beast. If you like it, fine . . . and if you don't like it, fine. This is like listening to my 8 year old and 12 year old argue in the back seat over some real stupid ********.
 

rover671

New member
Good lord this thread has gone down the toilet. I don't understand why some folks can't say they're not thrilled with the new Defender without having a pitchfork and torch wielding mob come running out of the shadows. The look is polarizing at best, and I can completely understand why folks who love the old Defender are more than a bit skeptical of the new approach . . . there's not a lot of continuity there. Irrespective of capability (which remains to be seen - none of you have driven it yet, and the irony is strong for all of those who keep pointing to the Disco 5 as the baseline), philosophically it is a huge friggin departure from the glorified tractors of old. No frame, no soft top, all those electronics - this is quite a different beast. If you like it, fine . . . and if you don't like it, fine. This is like listening to my 8 year old and 12 year old argue in the back seat over some real stupid ****.
But but I don't need articulation because I'm not into rock crawling.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Just because a car with the model name "defender" has not has independent suspension before or TC, doesn't mean no-one knows about independent suspension or traction control. It's not like Land Rover is at the bleeding edge of technology.
Where faith comes into it for me is that I believe they're trying to leverage modern tech and programming to do its best in this model, compared to, say, a Levar or whatever that thing is called.

Yes, it's a huge step compared to the tractors of the past. But that's the thing: It was old tech. Really, really old tech. With modern tech, modern suspension, it can be even better. Hoping for a continuation of old tractor tech and even be bummed because you can't take off the roof and doors is at best viewing the past with rose tinted glasses.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
But but I don't need articulation because I'm not into rock crawling.
No-one said you don't need articulation. You do. You don't need extreme articulation that the rock-crawling crowd wished for. There's a huge difference.
A swinging solid axle swinging down 25-40 inches isn't exactly good on anything other than rock crawling beasts. Hell, just the roll in corners is enough to make such things unsafe at anything above 20 kph.
 
Just because a car with the model name "defender" has not has independent suspension before or TC, doesn't mean no-one knows about independent suspension or traction control. It's not like Land Rover is at the bleeding edge of technology.
Where faith comes into it for me is that I believe they're trying to leverage modern tech and programming to do its best in this model, compared to, say, a Levar or whatever that thing is called.

Yes, it's a huge step compared to the tractors of the past. But that's the thing: It was old tech. Really, really old tech. With modern tech, modern suspension, it can be even better. Hoping for a continuation of old tractor tech and even be bummed because you can't take off the roof and doors is at best viewing the past with rose tinted glasses.
For me, low tech is the best tech. If that's rose tinted lenses, then I'm fine with it. This just isn't my cup of tea . . . and I AM bummed that there's not a soft top (open air driving is a great experience and the folding "LeCar" style fabric top LR has shown us isn't even close). I'd rather putter around in a soft top Series on weekends and have something completely different for a daily driver. I guess I'm in the same crowd of folks that love the old MGs and Triumphs as well. You can love this all you want and I'm ok with that . . . but you're not going to convince me it is what I really wanted all along . . .
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
I don't want to convince you of anything. I want to make it clear that just because you want to live out some romantic notion of motoring in the 1940s that that doesn't mean the new Land Rover is not off-road capable in 2019 (well, 2020).
 

gatorgrizz27

Active member
Good lord this thread has gone down the toilet. I don't understand why some folks can't say they're not thrilled with the new Defender without having a pitchfork and torch wielding mob come running out of the shadows. The look is polarizing at best, and I can completely understand why folks who love the old Defender are more than a bit skeptical of the new approach . . . there's not a lot of continuity there. Irrespective of capability (which remains to be seen - none of you have driven it yet, and the irony is strong for all of those who keep pointing to the Disco 5 as the baseline), philosophically it is a huge friggin departure from the glorified tractors of old. No frame, no soft top, all those electronics - this is quite a different beast. If you like it, fine . . . and if you don't like it, fine. This is like listening to my 8 year old and 12 year old argue in the back seat over some real stupid ****.
I tend to agree with you. While there are some things I’d have preferred to be done differently (no, not solid axles and crank windows), what everyone seems to be pissing and moaning about is “it’s not a real Defender.”

Thing is, the Defender was discontinued regardless, and even if they had kept producing them, it wasn’t available in the US anyway. So complaining that something that you’re now able to purchase isn’t the same as something you couldn’t purchase is completely stupid.

If you’re so frumpish that you find the new one “offensive to the lineage of the car” and would prefer for it to just have gone extinct at its peak, I can’t help you.

The fact of the matter is, had Land Rover named it literally anything else, everyone would be thrilled at them introducing an exciting new model that’s practical and capable.
 
I don't want to convince you of anything. I want to make it clear that just because you want to live out some romantic notion of motoring in the 1940s that that doesn't mean the new Land Rover is not off-road capable in 2019 (well, 2020).
Well, more like the romantic notion of motoring in the late 1970s than in the 1940s . . . just sayin’. And I didn’t say that I didn’t think it wasn’t off road capable - I said none of you have even driven it yet, but evraone is still arguing like crazy. If you love it, that’s cool. I’m clearly not their target buyer!
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
hahaha what a world we live in,
Land Rover owner makes fun of other vehicles reliability,
do all Land Rover owners have amnesia or only some ?
I'll leave this here too...rear driveshafts that grenade on up to 50% of the vehicles on the road:

 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Because I have to go to the grocery store occasionally and it wouldn't fit in my garage and a thousand other practical reasons- I've never said I want a specialized rock-crawler- I actually really don't care for rock crawling. The idea that a Wrangler is only good for rock crawling is one of the more superficial myths about Jeeps- can't say it enough to people who don't get it I guess- articulation, lockers, incredibly useful in a vast number of off-road situations. Granted they really shine on the rocks, but that certainly doesn't limit their advantage in other off-road situations where the terrain is uneven and rugged.

I also think something people are missing is the fun of the vehicle- taking the roof and doors off are a special experience- again, I like the slightly rougher ride- to me it's more true- it's more mechanical- no that doesn't mean I want to take that to an extreme and drive a tractor to work, but it does mean I like a more visceral experience when driving- I don't want to be numb to my surroundings- not the reason I get out into nature.
Wranglers really aren't the best at anything until you spend an extra $10,000 on lifts and Dana's and 37's and the time and tools necessary to install them, or the labor if you can't do it yourself...then they're really good at one thing.

I know a lot of people who have bought Wranglers, but they've all sold them for something else.
 
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