2020 Defender Spy Shots....

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nickw

Adventurer
I completely agree. I too recently saw an article about CARB lobbying States and manufacturers to get on board with their regulations. Yes the 2500/3500 is there own thing, but I had spoken to the resurgence/recent presence of the baby diesels in the domestic 1/2-ton (1500) segment (those baby diesels are also appearing in the domestic mid-size trucks as well as Jeep, or so we're told). Granted JLR is a different animal with a very global presence - but still, given the Defender's published weight ratings (a great thing in my book), I'd need to see a diesel with some guts offered in the US to consider one for how I like to use my toys. That's all.

You make some great points in response to other comments offered and I think we're in agreement - the strong headwind modern diesel faces here in the US is not only ridiculous but appalling. I almost have to subscribe to some, unknown to me, conspiracy theory, because why is an engine that consumes less fuel and emits less carbonaceous particulate matter somehow worse for the environment? [it's a rhetorical question, I don't really want an answer that's just a debate, please]

This first article, re diesel v gas, features a nice photo of a Defender...

https://cambridgemask.com/blog/diesel-gas-causes-air-pollution/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03714-9
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170717110429.htm
No conspiracy, quite simple, diesel may get better mileage and produce less carbon, they emit more NOx and particulate matter, both of which are arguably worse. The particulate matter thing is particularly alarming when you see and hear about guys removing the emissions equipment (some have suggested it in this thread), which seems very common. As the diesels age I think it's going to be more and more prevalent since replacing the systems is big $$. It may be tough to test for these systems also. Judging by the number of dudes rolling coal, many states must not test or can't test for it.

So you can have your diesel with more and more emissions stuff attached to it and potential reduction in reliability, increased maintenance and expense, all of which we are quickly starting to see.

 

Blaise

Well-known member
You're correct, most states do not have any emissions controls at the consumer level for diesel. Thus the obnoxious and pointless coal-rolling.

To be fair, most states also only perform an OBD2 test anymore. It's REAL easy to cheat those.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
No conspiracy, quite simple, diesel may get better mileage and produce less carbon, they emit more NOx and particulate matter, both of which are arguably worse. The particulate matter thing is particularly alarming when you see and hear about guys removing the emissions equipment (some have suggested it in this thread), which seems very common. As the diesels age I think it's going to be more and more prevalent since replacing the systems is big $$. It may be tough to test for these systems also. Judging by the number of dudes rolling coal, many states must not test or can't test for it.

So you can have your diesel with more and more emissions stuff attached to it and potential reduction in reliability, increased maintenance and expense, all of which we are quickly starting to see.

Several lawsuits have already happened lead by GOV officials going after Delete kits and services being sold. I recall one big case was said to be directly related to a group of cyclists getting coal rolled and one or more were State Senators riding in the group. I seem to recall that the business was raided and there was speculation that the customers would be targeted next.

Most states have vehicle inspections some far more stringent than others where things like brake pad life, body condition, lights etc all are looked at. CA you can take a complete pile to the Smog shop and as long as the emissions gear is intact and it passes the sniff test your fine.

But some states will flunk you for damaged fenders, bumpers, burnt out lights, bad brakes etc.
 

dreadlocks

Well-known member
diesel may get better mileage and produce less carbon, they emit more NOx and particulate matter, both of which are arguably worse.
Short Term, in dense populations.. perhaps.. however in rural america NOx breaks down out of the atmosphere within a few months and presents very few issues in such concentrations.. vs centuries for carbon to be taken out of our atmosphere naturally.

So you can have your diesel with more and more emissions stuff attached to it and potential reduction in reliability, increased maintenance and expense, all of which we are quickly starting to see.
Hate to break it to you, but GPF's and and all that stuff is already here for gasoline direct injection.. you think gasoline is exempt from more and more emissions stuff attached to it somehow?
 

nickw

Adventurer
Short Term, in dense populations.. perhaps.. however in rural america NOx breaks down out of the atmosphere within a few months and presents very few issues in such concentrations.. vs centuries for carbon to be taken out of our atmosphere naturally.



Hate to break it to you, but GPF's and and all that stuff is already here for gasoline direct injection.. you think gasoline is exempt from more and more emissions stuff attached to it somehow?
What's the point? Urban areas are more populated and is a bigger market for vehicles, the manuf. are not going to make two different vehicles or cater to the demands of the smaller rural demographic are they?

Not breaking anything to me. Fact remains, gas cars emit less particulate matter so the systems needn't be as complex or robust and the testing protocols are a bit different, so no, I don't see being as big of an issue on gas engines moving forward:


"Gasoline particulate filters are not expected to be widely adopted in North America, where particle emissions are regulated through mass-based PM limits only. The US Tier 3 PM limit of 3 mg/mi, as well as the 2025 California LEV III limit of 1 mg/mi will likely be met through in-cylinder control technologies."

Emissions stuff will eventually get more complex, but as we see now, diesel systems are more complex and seems like it will outpace gas. So I still see diesels systems being more complex regardless of what emissions rules are in place down the road.

My VW TDI had a pretty complex and expensive system, the particulate filter needed to be replaced and it was not cheap....some workarounds, but nothing approved by VW. It was a major PITA.
 
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nickw

Adventurer
Several lawsuits have already happened lead by GOV officials going after Delete kits and services being sold. I recall one big case was said to be directly related to a group of cyclists getting coal rolled and one or more were State Senators riding in the group. I seem to recall that the business was raided and there was speculation that the customers would be targeted next.

Most states have vehicle inspections some far more stringent than others where things like brake pad life, body condition, lights etc all are looked at. CA you can take a complete pile to the Smog shop and as long as the emissions gear is intact and it passes the sniff test your fine.

But some states will flunk you for damaged fenders, bumpers, burnt out lights, bad brakes etc.
Good, I'm an avid cyclist and it's happened to me.

"For offroad use only" I am sure :)
 

dreadlocks

Well-known member
You simply tax diesel fuel significantly in areas with smog problems and let markets decide, I live in an area with smog issues.. Ive owned just about every iteration of the TDI in north america.. I dont really drive em in the city tho, I could if I wanted too but the engine would gunk up quick w/high EGR load.. I drive a gas engine because it warms up on the 10min drive to work in the morning, or the 4 mins to the grocery store.

My VW TDI let me drive all over north america w/a small cargo trailer, getting better fuel economy and producing far, far less emissions than any truck I could have bought.. new DPF was pretty cheap actually, they did fine as a niche product for over a decade, wasn't an issue until a bunch of people traded priuses in for em thinking the'd be great for driving all the time for less than 10mins, not realizing thats when they pollute like crazy and have all sorts of emissions failures.

In a sane world, The folks in the city w/smog issues should be giving up ICE before the great vast open spaces of north america should give up diesel..
 

nickw

Adventurer
You simply tax diesel fuel significantly in areas with smog problems and let markets decide, I live in an area with smog issues.. Ive owned just about every iteration of the TDI in north america.. I dont really drive em in the city tho, I could if I wanted too but the engine would gunk up quick w/high EGR load.. I drive a gas engine because it warms up on the 10min drive to work in the morning, or the 4 mins to the grocery store.

My VW TDI let me drive all over north america w/a small cargo trailer, getting better fuel economy and producing far, far less emissions than any truck I could have bought.. new DPF was pretty cheap actually, they did fine as a niche product for over a decade, wasn't an issue until a bunch of people traded priuses in for em thinking the'd be great for driving all the time for less than 10mins, not realizing thats when they pollute like crazy and have all sorts of emissions failures.

In a sane world, The folks in the city w/smog issues should be giving up ICE before the great vast open spaces of north america should give up diesel..
It's not that simple - that's a possible solution sure, but re-structuring our fuel taxes and the political implications are pretty significant, particularly when you mix it with the auto industry.

I owned my TDI for 60k miles before it got bought back, it was spectacular. At the time the DPF was getting full for users anywhere between 90k - 130k miles it seemed. VW wanted people to replace but apparently there were some vacuum workarounds or other aftermarket solutions.....although fine for enthusiasts, it wasn't for the average person.
 

dreadlocks

Well-known member
yeah but thats moot because new gas engines got a particulate filter that will someday fill up too.. its just a wear part, Ive had catalytic converters clog up on cars long after manufacturer stopped making parts for em.. its the same old song and dance.

California has already taxed diesel to the extent that all fuel efficiency gains a passenger diesel would see are break even at best, you'll pay a premium for a diesel vehicle that cannot be recovered in fuel savings, that makes it pretty unattractive.. it's doable.
 

nickw

Adventurer
yeah but thats moot because new gas engines got a particulate filter that will someday fill up too.. its just a wear part, Ive had catalytic converters clog up on cars long after manufacturer stopped making parts for em.. its the same old song and dance.

California has already taxed diesel to the extent that all fuel efficiency gains a passenger diesel would see are break even at best, you'll pay a premium for a diesel vehicle that cannot be recovered in fuel savings, that makes it pretty unattractive.. it's doable.
Did you see the link in the above post? Citing that:

"Gasoline particulate filters are not expected to be widely adopted in North America, where particle emissions are regulated through mass-based PM limits only. The US Tier 3 PM limit of 3 mg/mi, as well as the 2025 California LEV III limit of 1 mg/mi will likely be met through in-cylinder control technologies."

Some cars may have them but they are not universal. Besides, catalytic converters are cheap and very low-tech, early ones may have had issues, but it's not a problem in the last....long time.

That's why I don't buy into diesel tech on new rigs anymore. We had a 2009 X5 diesel, awesome rig, lots of power no major problems....but I saw the writing on the wall, traded it in on a gasser when it was time.
 

JeepColorado

Active member
I saw two other D5's in one day on the trails around Crested Butte. Mine was the 3rd.

You don't see many LRs on the trail because there were never that many LR's made in the first place. FCA and its predecessors have made more Wranglers than JLR has made cars in the last 30 years. So it's not surprising, really.

Saw a Range Rover and a D1 at the old trailhead to South Colony Lakes back when you could drive to the end of the road. Have seen them at the end of the road on Blanca as well.
Their small volume doesn't stop you from seeing plenty of them at Starbucks! :)
 

REDROVER

Explorer
I wish you were correct,
Land rovers number one market is Southern California,
guess what, Southern California Land Rover club has less than 15 members, from that 15 only 8 of us go off road, from those 8 memebers 3 of them sold the rovers and have, 2002 land cruiser, 2009 rubicon, 2002 G wagon and my H1 or the stupid Tacoma,
and every single event that we go to every month, we have not seen one single other Land Rover out there playing.

But Jeeps ? Groups and groups all the time.

Fact, Land Rover brand most definitely is not being used off road in USA or maybe 1%

But the interesting part is that we are still members of Southern California Land Rover club haha without rovers.
 

onemanarmy

Explorer
Diesel or no diesel, the underlying vehicle is the same. A swing and a miss (If you're gonna call it a Defender)

No body on frame. No solid (at least rear) axle. No normal N/A engine. No removable top/doors. No manual trans. No truly stripped down model. Why LED headlights and taillights? Why auto dimming and power mirrors? Automatic headlight leveling? Leather steering wheel and leather gearshift? And it still looks like a plastic concept car from 1999.

Nothing I see that is built for the long haul. Especially given JLR past 20 years of depreciation and expensive mechanical problems.

Get out of here.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Diesel or no diesel, the underlying vehicle is the same. A swing and a miss (If you're gonna call it a Defender)

No body on frame. No solid (at least rear) axle. No normal N/A engine. No removable top/doors. No manual trans. No truly stripped down model. Why LED headlights and taillights? Why auto dimming and power mirrors? Automatic headlight leveling? Leather steering wheel and leather gearshift? And it still looks like a plastic concept car from 1999.

Nothing I see that is built for the long haul. Especially given JLR past 20 years of depreciation and expensive mechanical problems.

Get out of here.
What problem does IFS rear cause? You don't like high torque fuel efficient engines? LED lights are much more reliable than the old bulbs.....

Body on frame? Meh, Jeep Cherokees seem to have held up just fine....
 
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