2012 unlimited or Toyota fj

JPK

Explorer
J

Sorry, but your experience is the very definition of anecdotal.

There were 603,303 Jeep TJ/LJ jeeps sold from 1996-2006. Assume they each are driven an average of 15,000 miles per year. That means they accumulate a total of 9 billion miles per year. Your total of 400,000 miles represents, 0.0044% of the total miles accumulated per year. So, even if you drove your Jeeps 400,000 miles in a single year it would still represent a tiny, tiny fraction of the annual miles driven by just this one model in a single year.

More realistically, assume your 400,000 total miles was accumulated over the 10 year production run of the TJ/LJ model. In that case your total mileage would represent 0.0004% of the total miles driven on these Jeeps.

I am really happy you have had a great experience with the Jeeps you've owned over the years. Nevertheless, your experience is in reality anecdotal, and you can't use that limited sample size to support any meaningful conclusion about the overall reliability of Jeep's products.

At what point does experience stop being ancedotal?

Do they crash test every Jeep to come up with a rating? 50%? 25% ... No, not close to even 1%.

Jeez, how can they ever give a rating based on such a low percentage of experience with head on or quarter on crashes compared to the many, many more crashes out there?

How often do you need to watch the sun rise in the east to conclude that it doesn't rise in the west? Or that it will rise in the east again tomorrow...
 

K2ZJ

Explorer
How often do you need to watch the sun rise in the east to conclude that it doesn't rise in the west? Or that it will rise in the east again tomorrow...

More than 0.0004%! So if the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the sun assumedly rises everyday, that is 1,642,500,000,000 sun risings. If you were check it every day for 100 years that would only be 36,500 times which is an astounding 0.00000002%.

Also I am waiting for these made up reliability numbers.
 

JPK

Explorer
OK, that was a damned funny, and accurate, response. You have made my point, a low testing sample or threshold can lead to an accurate conclusion!

I'm not sure what reliability ratings your writing about though.

The only reliabilty ratings I have seen were by JD Powrs. They rate the JK at 5, which is "Good" or average as they describe it. They rate the FJ at 8, which is "Excellent." No real suprise there.
 

K2ZJ

Explorer
I was referring to above where people said the JK was unreliable relative to the FJ. They have no data to back it up yet. JD Powers does their predicted reliability base on the manufacturer and other cars in the line. So Jeep not having the greatest record from years past will carry over to their ratings. It doesn't necessarily reflect how reliable a vehicle will be.

The president of JD Power was on some car show talking about perceived reliability several years ago. He said foreign cars have lost some reliability and domestics have made great improvement. He said you are now getting the same reliability. The problem domestics had to face was the perception that they are not as good, when in reality they were equals.

EDIT: Now that I read my other post again, the Earth is closer 4.6b, and the rotation of the Earth is slowing so there were actually more than the 1,642,500,000,000 sun risings.
 
Last edited:

JPK

Explorer
Ahh, so one can make an accurate conclusion/prediction on an even smaller sample or threshold!

Yeah, percieved vs. real.

Want a great deal on a low milage luxury car? Buy a Jaguar. Their 50 year old reputation for being a pita still overshadows reality. A few years after Ford bought them reliability soared. For that matter, Range Rover reliability soared after they ere bought too.
 

redthies

Renaissance Redneck
You ever wonder if the original poster is still reading his thread after 10 pages of arguments? I say do what I did... I have a JK AND a (real) Land Cruiser:sombrero:
 

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
JD Power does two ratings. The first, an "initial quality" rating, is based on surveys of new cars. This rating measures quality off the showroom floor, I believe defined as defects reported in the first 90 days. It also measures consumer satisfaction with the functionality of the car as measured by surveys of customers. JD Power does not discuss how many vehicles (or customers) they evaluate to determine their ratings, but I'm quite sure it's more than a half dozen.

Their other rating is a "dependability" rating, which measures reliability after 3 years of ownership. Again, they don't reveal how many vehicles they survey to obtain a statisically significant sample, but I'm quite sure it's based on more vehicles than any one of us would own in a lifetime.

Obviously, for current year cars, or in fact any car that has been on the market for less than 3 years, they have to use some sort of projection to forecast the predicted reliability. They make these projections based on their collected history on similar models, or in some cases where they have an entirely new model they base their prediction on their overall history with a particular brand.

You might suggest that these predicted ratings are then based on a very small sample, but in reality they are based on a very large sample of cars. For example, where there is an earlier version of a particular model the prediction would be based on a large sample of that earlier model. Given the amount of commonality across models that often exists "under the skin" this turns out to be a reasonable approach. Think about how engines, transmissions, and even smaller components such as alternators, water pumps, and so on are used across many models and you can see why this method will predict reliability reasonably well. To be sure, it's not as good as actual data on the car in question, but for a new model where the historical data simply can not be had it's a pretty good approach.

The accuracy of these predicted reliability ratings can suffer when you have a major new model introduction, or a major new component such as a new engine. But then, that's exactly why many advise against buying such new models until their reliability is proven.

Back to the question at hand. In the case of the 2008 JKU they show a overall dependabiltiy rating of 2 out of 5, and a powertrain dependability rating of 2 out of 5. In the case of the 2008 FJC they show an overall dependability rating of 4.5 out of 5, and a powertrain dependability rating of 5 out of 5.

I chose those years because they should have the full three years of data behind the ratings. All JD Power ratings are freely available at www.jdpower.com

It is true that the domestic manufacturers have made great strides in reliability. Unfortunately, Jeep's overall rating still runs to the middle of the pack at 2 out of 5. I don't mean to suggest people shouldn't buy a Jeep. I appreciate the capabilities they offer, and as I said in an earlier post, if your needs run towards the rock crawling end of the spectrum the Jeep very well may be the best choice for that application. For most of us though, reliability should also be a consideration, and to the extent it is important it should be evaluated based on the best data around, not anecdotal evidence.

BTW, where the sun rises is a meaningless example to this discussion as it is not a function of statistics in any meaningful sense.
 

Bennyhana

Adventurer
You guys are forgeting the most important factor.....How cool do I look driving it? Who cares how reliable it is, can I pick up the chicks? How awesome does it look sitting in my driveway?
 

K2ZJ

Explorer
BTW, where the sun rises is a meaningless example to this discussion as it is not a function of statistics in any meaningful sense.

First you missed the sarcasm. Second, you are reinforcing JDs predicted reliability. Where are actual numbers?
 

JPK

Explorer
I wonder how much the predicted reliability score of the Jeep is impacted by problems the source of which is actually using the vehicle off road.

How much is the score impacted as a result of modifications done to the Jeep, whether poorly done or not.

cnynrat, you failed to respond to my query regarding the crash test ratings.

JPK
 
Last edited:

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
First you missed the sarcasm. Second, you are reinforcing JDs predicted reliability. Where are actual numbers?

Sorry, sarcasm is sometimes difficult to pick up in writing, especially when you don't know the writer.

I think I explained JD Power's two different ratings and their methodology pretty well. A three year old model such as the 2008 examples I cited are rated based on surveys they collect from a sample they deem statistically significant. They don't talk about survey quantities or sample size, but I would guess it's in the area of 3% of production vehicles.

You either accept and believe there is a reasonable sample size behind their numerical rating, or you don't. If you don't like JD Powers, there are other services, such as Consumer Reports you can use.

For newer vehicles they obviously have to make a prediction. In order of descending preference, they use: 1. Data from identical models from earlier model years. 2. Data from similar models from earlier model years. 3. Data from other vehicles from that manufacterer. You either believe that approach is in some way representative of the reliability of a new model, or not. As I pointed out, the commonality of many components, as well as production processes, production staff, component suppliers and so on across many different models is what tends to make this method reasonable. Not as accurate as real data from a model that's been in production for a number of years, but reasonable. I'd suggest it's better than anecdotal information, most of which is also not going to be about the same model/year under consideration.
 

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
I wonder how much the predicted reliability score of the Jeep is impacted by problems the source of which is actually using the vehicle off road.

How much is the score impacted as a result of modifications done to the Jeep, whether poorly done or not.

cnynrat, you failed to respond to my query regarding the crash test ratings.

JPK

Your first two points get at why anecdotal examples are poor predictors of overall product reliability. You may be a guy that is all over maintaining your vehicles, doing all the right preventive maintenance routines, and so on. You will probably experience better than average reliability as a result. You have to look at samples over a broad base to get a more realisitic view of the inherent reliability of a product.

Crash testing is a different animal. Crash testing is a well defined process, with well defined criteria for success. The test procedure says "5 vehicles shall be tested," (or whatever the number is). The evaluation criteria say, for example, "The forces tranmitted to the torso of the test dummy shall be measured." Cars are crashed and data collected in accordance with the specified test procedure, and ratings are developed off those results.

Why do they use a small sample? A couple reasons probably. First, the belief is that crash test results are affected more by vehicle design and less by random production variations. Second, there is a cost/benefit analysis at work here. I'm sure the regulators would like to crash more cars, but the expense in light of limited benefits makes that prohibitive.

I've driven this thread far enough off topic, so I'll let it get back on track.
 

K2ZJ

Explorer
Sorry, sarcasm is sometimes difficult to pick up in writing, especially when you don't know the writer.

I think I explained JD Power's two different ratings and their methodology pretty well. A three year old model such as the 2008 examples I cited are rated based on surveys they collect from a sample they deem statistically significant. They don't talk about survey quantities or sample size, but I would guess it's in the area of 3% of production vehicles.

You either accept and believe there is a reasonable sample size behind their numerical rating, or you don't. If you don't like JD Powers, there are other services, such as Consumer Reports you can use.

For newer vehicles they obviously have to make a prediction. In order of descending preference, they use: 1. Data from identical models from earlier model years. 2. Data from similar models from earlier model years. 3. Data from other vehicles from that manufacterer. You either believe that approach is in some way representative of the reliability of a new model, or not. As I pointed out, the commonality of many components, as well as production processes, production staff, component suppliers and so on across many different models is what tends to make this method reasonable. Not as accurate as real data from a model that's been in production for a number of years, but reasonable. I'd suggest it's better than anecdotal information, most of which is also not going to be about the same model/year under consideration.

You explained perfectly, same as on the JD powers site.

I had a bunch more typed out, but it is beating a dead horse.

BTW, I saw the sun rise in the east again, please add that entry to data.
 

JPK

Explorer
In your first paragragh you have managed to argue that the JD Powers owners' reporting is ancidotal....

A broken part on a Jeep is a well defined process with a well defined criterium. The Jeep runs, then it won't run; the part is either broken or not. The procedure is really well defined, ID the broken part and fix. Even simpler data collection and similar ratings. The only real difference is sample size.

Vehicles are all assembled the same - as in Jeep engines are all assembled the same, same factory, same machines, same procedures, mostly the same personnel, Jeep frames and bodies are also assembled the same, no difference and you have no idea of how "random production variations" effect either mechanical or frame/body assemblies - but there will be variances in both. In fact, the frame/body variances are well known.

Yes, the cost benefit issue. I would have liked to test more Jeeps for reliability myself, but the expense of purchasing a fleet of Jeeps was prohibitive.

Don't worry about being off topic, this thread has gone WAY beyond salvation in so far as the OP's question. I'm sure he bought his JKU by now and is pleased as punch and relieved that he didn't by the wanna be FJ! (tried to insert a smilie here but must have been on the wrong reply page.)
 
Last edited:
if you want a modern day vehicle which is very durable and dependable buy a ford work truck. I work at an open pit mine which had a company truck program. During the economic down turn in 2008 the mine purchased back all the trucks from owners as they eliminated the program. fleet is nearly 1600 trucks. Very diverse group of trucks that run daily in muck, rocks, and severe off road conditions. Within the past 2.5 years of maintaining vehicles which were purchase back such as toyota tacomas, tundras, fjs, 4runners, nissan frontiers, titans, dodge ram trucks, chevy trucks, and ford trucks. The longest lasting are ford f250/350 trucks. they take a beating, and have lowest cost of operation, which is why the mine is phasing out all trucks besides ford f250/350's. We have areas where trucks run 24/7 in really rough conditions and are replaced every three years (most ford trucks last 3 yrs, chevy 2.5, dodge, 2.25 and all the rest fall under 2 yrs). I could go on for a long time about vehicle usage, repair rates, spares cost and spares availability. i have thought of making my own exped vehcile out of a base 350 with 5.4 v8. I have a '10 rubicon unlimited, had a '06 rubi unlimited, have an '09 xterra off road, had an '06 lifted CRD liberty, had an '08 frontier off road, and 2000 disco 2. They all have their plus and minus depending on your preference, but after daily use of a ford truck in some of the worst off road conditions encountered on a daily basis the ford truck works very well. This is not bashing or talking bad about any vehicle, it is just a different perspective and can be taken for what its worth. From an industrial point of view for server duty ford is preferred.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
185,914
Messages
2,879,585
Members
225,497
Latest member
WonaWarrior
Top