2012 unlimited or Toyota fj

JPK

Explorer
...

As for installing an AEV kit, generally you can improve anything with aftermarket parts. Yes the AEV kit is a well designed suspension system, but from the sounds of the OPs intentions he will be leaving the vehicle stock for a good while. A lot of people have a hard time voiding there warranty and spending the cash right after they have bought a 30k+ car.

The same can be said for the FJ... all you have to do is spend money to make it more off road capable.
If you install an AEV suspension on a 2012 JKU, you will void the warranty for only the oem suspension. Add larger tires nd appropriate wheels and then there is some confusion here and there. For example, a dealer might argue that a ball joint issue was caused by the larger tires, or wheels with less backspacing. Dealers are different, some are into modified Jeeps, or even modify them prior to or after sale, some are not.

But, in any event, the whole of the warranty isn't voided. Also, the burden of proof resides with the dealer, and not the owner, though fighting the issue might lead to a phyric victory. Having a brain cramp at the momment and can't recall the name of the act, but it is federal law of the land. That law applies to Jeeps and also to Toyotas... But, no matter how much you change on the Toyota you can't make it as capable as the Jeep.

I have a 2010, but it has a Hemi and the 545rfe, AEV 4.5" suspension, 37" BFG A/T's etc, etc, etc. Rides better than my wife's Range Rover Sport, or my Suburban, or my wife's all but stock JKU. Handles better than the Suburban or stock Jeep, damn near as well as the Range Rover, which has the oem Perrelli street tires. Other than three Jaguars that I have owned over the years, it is by far the most satisfying vehicle I have owned.

My wife's Rubicon Unlimited is a 2008, and but for a TF 2.5" BB and a set of Spider Trax wheel spacers it is stock, and still riding on the oem BFG M/T's. Its been trouble free, but it is going to be sold for a new 2012 Rubicon Unlimited.:wings:


BTW, anyone interested in a cherry 2008 Rubicon Unlimited with 18k miles? Rescue green, auto, soft top and half doors. The upgraded stereo. :sombrero:

JPK
 

imagrsmnky

New member
But, in any event, the whole of the warranty isn't voided. Also, the burden of proof resides with the dealer, and not the owner, though fighting the issue might lead to a phyric victory. Having a brain cramp at the momment and can't recall the name of the act, but it is federal law of the land. That law applies to Jeeps and also to Toyotas... But, no matter how much you change on the Toyota you can't make it as capable as the Jeep.


JPK

I agree that you will not void the entire warranty, but it will give ammunition for the dealer to try and get out of repairs.. No one likes to be in that position when the dealer says you need a new transmission and they wont warranty it because you have 37" tires and they think that added undue stress.

Are you saying the FJ around here thats on Pro Rock 60s with coilovers, 40" MTRs, Atlas 2 amongst other mods is not as capable as a JK? One advantage there is a custom suspension can be more fine tuned than a bolt on kit. But a JK with the same mods would be equally capable.

Just sayin..
 

JPK

Explorer
I agree that you will not void the entire warranty, but it will give ammunition for the dealer to try and get out of repairs.. No one likes to be in that position when the dealer says you need a new transmission and they wont warranty it because you have 37" tires and they think that added undue stress.

Are you saying the FJ around here thats on Pro Rock 60s with coilovers, 40" MTRs, Atlas 2 amongst other mods is not as capable as a JK? One advantage there is a custom suspension can be more fine tuned than a bolt on kit. But a JK with the same mods would be equally capable.

Just sayin..
A JK with similar mods will be more capable, if only because it will weigh less and have a lower center of gravity all other things the same, as in armor, skids, etc. JK's with D60's, coil overs and 40's, 42's even 44's are getting to be pretty common. The move to 60's and coil overs is relativley easy too. No re-inventing the wheel, as with the Toyota.

On fine tuning a JK, there isn't much to it with control arms, and the housings are available right off the shelf, either D44 or D60 or some of the HD other options, with corrected geometry built in.

Personally, I think that if you need to go D60's, coilovers, 40+ tires you ought to go buggy, because no matter what platform you began with it isn't really a viable street machine anymore.

As far as warranty, you can live with the Jeep or Toyota as it came from the factory or you can wait and wait and wait... for the warranty to end or you can go ahead and spice up your life and your truck. I suppose in your view all those guys with the Jeep lifetime powertrain warranty have it rough, never ending warranty and all.

BTW, when you walk around, does a rain cloud follow you?

JPK
 
Last edited:

Recommended books for Overlanding

The Total Approach of Getting Unstuck Off Road: 4WD Self-...
by Robert Wohlers
From $59.95
Tschiffely's Ride: Ten Thousand Miles in the Saddle from ...
by Aimé Tschiffely
From $10.99
Motorcycle Messengers: Tales from the Road by Writers who...
by Lois Pryce, Mark Richardson, Carla King, Sam Manic...
From $9.99
Motorcycle Messengers 2: Tales from the Road by Writers w...
by Jeremy Kroeker, Ted Simon, Lois Pryce, Billy Ward,...
From $9.99

McKBrew

New member
I traded in a 2009 JKU for a 2004 4 Runner.

Nothing bad to say really about the Jeep, but it just didn't give me the impression that it was going to last. The Jeep had 18000 miles on it and creaks, groans, shimmies of an older vehicle. The solid front axle can be useful, but on a highway vehicle with stock suspension, it's not the most comfortable ride.

The 4 runner is smooth with 137000 miles on it.

The Jeep is a capable vehicle that can go many places, but to think it is the only vehicle capable of handling everything out there is a bit snooty. A well built FJ, 4 Runner, etc... can go where it needs to as well.

I miss things about the JK, but there is a lot I don't miss too.
 

JPK

Explorer
As we all know, there isn't a vehicle out there that can handle everything. But the more toward the buggy end of the spectrum the more the vehicle will be able to handle. All Jeep wrangler types, including the JK's begin life more toward the buggy end of the spectrum. No steel tops, easy off doors and that means less weight up top... As far as extensively modified vehicles, its easier to modify a Jeep to push it even further toward the buggy end of the spectrum. But at some point, as I wrote earlier, it doesn't really matter what the original platform was.

The list of vehicles that can get where the owner needs to go is nearly endless. What thins the crowd is where the owner wants to go. For fun, no other crowd has gone en mass where Jeep owners want to go, but for work, no other crowd has gone where Land Rover or 70 Series Land Cruiser PU's have gone.

JPK
 

jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
I don't even want to think about how much it would cost to get an FJC as off-road capable as just a stock JKU, the vehicles aren't even a fair comparison to begin with though.
 

imagrsmnky

New member
A JK with similar mods will be more capable, if only because it will weigh less and have a lower center of gravity all other things the same, as in armor, skids, etc. JK's with D60's, coil overs and 40's, 42's even 44's are getting to be pretty common. The move to 60's and coil overs is relativley easy too. No re-inventing the wheel, as with the Toyota.

On fine tuning a JK, there isn't much to it with control arms, and the housings are available right off the shelf, either D44 or D60 or some of the HD other options, with corrected geometry built in.

Personally, I think that if you need to go D60's, coilovers, 40+ tires you ought to go buggy, because no matter what platform you began with it isn't really a viable street machine anymore.

As far as warranty, you can live with the Jeep or Toyota as it came from the factory or you can wait and wait and wait... for the warranty to end or you can go ahead and spice up your life and your truck. I suppose in your view all those guys with the Jeep lifetime powertrain warranty have it rough, never ending warranty and all.

BTW, when you walk around, does a rain cloud follow you?

JPK
A stock JKU is around 200lbs heavier than an FJ. COG will be better if you have the soft top.
I guess for people who dont think out of the box it would be reinventing the wheel, but IRC I'm pretty sure Peterson's built an FJ for there ultimate adventure and road tripped it with little to no complaints.
I agree with not needing the 60s and such im building a tj with stock axles and I am on the rubicon weekly, or at least bi-weekly.
Not saying the warranty should stop anyone from modifying there rig, if it did I would be out of a job, Its just something a lot (most) people consider when planning there build.

Im not trying to be a glass is half empty guy here, you just seem to think the 2012 JKU is the be all end all 4wd vehicle of the century. I really don't personally like the FJ (as stated before).
 

imagrsmnky

New member
As we all know, there isn't a vehicle out there that can handle everything. But the more toward the buggy end of the spectrum the more the vehicle will be able to handle. All Jeep wrangler types, including the JK's begin life more toward the buggy end of the spectrum. No steel tops, easy off doors and that means less weight up top... As far as extensively modified vehicles, its easier to modify a Jeep to push it even further toward the buggy end of the spectrum. But at some point, as I wrote earlier, it doesn't really matter what the original platform was.

The list of vehicles that can get where the owner needs to go is nearly endless. What thins the crowd is where the owner wants to go. For fun, no other crowd has gone en mass where Jeep owners want to go, but for work, no other crowd has gone where Land Rover or 70 Series Land Cruiser PU's have gone.

JPK
I agree with the jeep being a better out of the box starting point for what is available in the us for most terrains, as I stated before if most of your trips are going to be a bit higher speed (exploring Baja for example) the FJ will out perform the JK.
 

imagrsmnky

New member
We can go back and forth forever, keep adding more to the pot. I could modify a pinto to be more capable than a unimog. The simple truth is out of the box each vehicle has good points and bad, but the real deciding factor in which is more capable comes down to what it is used for. Off road is a broad term. If I were using my car for sand and long bumpy roads primarily I might go for somthing with IFS, if more technical definitely solid axle.
 

imagrsmnky

New member
I don't even want to think about how much it would cost to get an FJC as off-road capable as just a stock JKU, the vehicles aren't even a fair comparison to begin with though.
Why would you consider it unfair? The only big advantages I see that the JKU has over FJ is front locker, sway bar disco and more gearing options.
 

jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
Why would you consider it unfair? The only big advantages I see that the JKU has over FJ is front locker, sway bar disco and more gearing options.
I spend about 10 days in Moab throughout each year and have observed both vehicles in just about any situation imaginable, believe me when I say that the FJC is very weak in many areas where Jeeps thrive. About the only thing to it's credit is the IFS which allows it to go marginally faster than a properly set up Jeep over bumpy dirt roads.

On the other hand, if I never had to utilize a back seat and was looking for purely a dirt road cruiser and going on the occasional easy trail, the FJC would make a great car for that. But then again, I'm pretty sure that an Outback or Forester with a good driver will make it into 90% of the places most FJC owners dare tread....
 

JPK

Explorer
A Jeep four door is NOT 200lbs or so heavier than an FJ: Jeep Rubicon Unlimited = 4340lbs; FJ = 4343. This info was taken right off the respective websites. The cited weight for the Jeep Unlimited Rubicon is with a hard top and full doors. Remove them and the weight plummets several hundred pounds. You could replace them with soft top and half doors which weigh next to nothing, or run like so many do, topless and doorless. Moreover, that weight the Jeep does carry is lower, since it isn't in the non existent top or doors. Remember that this is regarding a modified rock rig with D60's, coil overs, 40+ tires, not a DD capable rig, either Toyota or Jeep.

If you think an FJ is as capable as a Jeep, especially a Rubicon Unlimited, you are kidding yourself. And that is right our of the box. For $1500 or so you can have an excellent AEV or RK suspension, another $1500 or so you can have great 35" or 37" tires and wheels, or you could skip the tires and stick with the oem 32's for that matter. The same $1500 or $3000 doesn't fix the FJ's issues, no front locker, poor approach, breakover and departure angles, pita to lift properly because of the IFS, poor articulation because of the IFS... There is just nothing to argue about when it comes to rock crawling, the Jeep is by far the most capable out of the box or modified. Look no further than Toyota's own website, which shows two shots of FJ's on three wheels when any Jeep would still have four on the ground.

Reinventing the wheel is when you take an IFS vehicle and have to retro fit it with solid axles in an effort to make it something it isn't suited to be from the outset. Maybe the Petersen guys didn't complain about a little adventure, but put 60's, coil overs and 40+ tires on a Jeep or Toyota you're going to be putting thousands of road miles on and the complaints will fly.

What is almost sad is that for our shared "overland" or "expo" or "back country adventure" goals, the Jeep four door is still the best candidate. I don't think that the 2012 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited is the end all be all of 4wd's of the century, the century is still young! But really, they are by FAR the best candidates that us mere mortal can get. Other contenders that would beat the Jeep aren't available here. The 70 Series for example. Some might argue the Land Rovers.

BTW, for fast washboard, try AEV's suspension, it was a particular goal of AEV's to tame washboard with their suspensions. With your TJ you could do no bettrer than the AEV/9th Degree suspensions as well. Also running disconnected up front makes washboard smoother riding, something I never heard about until I tried it. I can't say enough about AEV's suspensions. My Jeep handles washboard better than my wife's Range Rover, which is all independent suspension, smoother ride, quieter....

JPK
 
Last edited:

Corey

OverCamping Specialist
Stone stock FJ Cruiser on Hells Gate in Moab.
Even the tires are stock.


Same place a Jeep flipped.


Granted it has a lot to do with spotting, but the FJ was designed to tackle this stuff right off the show room floor with stock tires.

Personally I am biased towards the FJ, not because I drive one, but because of the reliability that goes into Toyota, and less trips to the dealer for warranty work.
 

Recommended books for Overlanding

Dreaming of Jupiter
by Ted Simon
From $16.83
Vehicle-dependent Expedition Guide
by Tom Sheppard
From $144.54
First Overland: London-Singapore by Land Rover
by Tim Slessor
From $15

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
If memory serves I believe the respective manufacturers of both of these vehicles took more or less stock examples out and successfully negotiated the Rubicon Trail. I'd argue that establishes that both vehicles have a level of trail performance that is suitable for the vast majority of what most of us here would consider "expedition travel." Most of us are not here for serious rock crawling, a domain where I suspect most would agree the JK is going to come out on top.

Does the JK offer more off road performance oriented features (front locker, sway bar disconnects, greater articulation ...)? Clearly it does. Do you need those features for the type of travel and trails you anticipate? Only the buyer can answer that question.

Does the FJ with it's IFS offer the potential for a more comfortable day to day drive on the streets where many of us spend the vast majority of our time driving? Probably the case. Do you value the history of reliability that Toyota has established over the years? Again, these are tradeoffs that the buyer needs to make based on their priorities.

There is no universal right or wrong answer here. Both are highly capable vehicles off road. I suspect that within the realm of the typical trails travelled by folks here on ExPo, there are few situations where either of these vehicles wouldn't get you where you want to go.
 

JPK

Explorer
Corey,

It wasn't so much the poor spotting in the Jeep video, it was the moron for a driver who gunned it to flip it over. For a more representative look at Jeeps' performance on Hell's Gate, take a look at the next video that pops up at the conclusion, the AEV Jeep on Hell's Gate. I think the driver is sipping his cofee and chomping on his Egg McMuffin on the way up...

Yeah, the Toyota appears stock, and there a tons of video of stock Jeeps on Hell's Gate too.

In the Toyota video there is a moment when the FJ clears the top that reveals the limitations of the FJ's and the advantages of the Jeep. When the FJ clears the top, the crowd errupts clapping and cheering, the crowd was excited. When a Jeep clears the top no one errupts clapping and cheering, might be a wave, a nod, or a muted "well done" but it is so ordinary course that it is unremarkable. Its why the black (Jeep) tire marks are so bold.

Go the Toyota website for the FJ and take a look at the photo of the FJ on Hell's Gate. Three friggin' tires on the ground. Almost no articulation. You gotta be kidding!

If the FJ was designed for more than mild off road terrain from the get go, it would have solid axles front and rear, just like the Toyotas that ARE designed for off road. And like Jeeps and Land Rovers which are also designed for off road.

But in any event, the slick rock stuff is for the most part thrilling but not actually challenging, which is why it is so much fun. On that climb there are no approach or departure issues, no breakover issues, not much articulation issue with a decent spotter.

On reliability, so far so good for our Jeeps. One trip to the dealer for a minor recall issue and only one tail light bulb in a combined 50k miles. But it would be hard to bet against the Toyota for long term reliability/ resistance to wear and tear - but based on the track record of other than FJ trucks.

JPK
 
Last edited:
Top