09 Defender... what's the word?
- Thread starter thairish
- Start date
Rallyroo
Expedition Leader
I'm in the US, so I'm still wishing for the return of the Defender. So um, yeah, can't say I'll get to experience it anytime soon.
Although I have driven a lovely D110 TD5 while in New Zealand. If only it would of fit it into my check-in luggage to bring it home with me.
Although I have driven a lovely D110 TD5 while in New Zealand. If only it would of fit it into my check-in luggage to bring it home with me.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
I never drove an older one to compare, but I did a fair amount of powertrain testing on the 07's with the Transit engine. The Ford engine produces much more torque down low than the I5, and due to being short one cylinder, it can be rougher when you're tractoring it. Our test vehicle originally had a dual-mass flywheel like the Transit, which smoothens out the power while running, but we found that when combined with the Defender's different accessory drive layout, resulted in completely unacceptable performance from the accessory system when lugging. In addition, I believe there were failures of the dual-mass flywheel system due to mud getting into the bellhousing. Therefore, the decision was made to go back to a standard solid flywheel. This makes the engine rougher while running, but lugging performance was greatly improved, as well as more durability, and it was decided that it would be better for the Defender customer.
Most of my testing involved actually trying to lug the engine very low. I found that with the single mass flywheel... it was a practical impossibility to stall it. In high range, you can run it at 500rpm and floor the throttle and it will dig itself out of the hole, albeit very slowly in the higher gears. Things don't really start to happen until about 1500 rpm. In low range, it is basically impossible to stall. I tried everything, 20% grade, from a stop, 1st gear at idle and sidestep the clutch with no throttle. It just lurched forward and climbed the hill at a crawl.
What I was doing was trying to find failure modes in the accessory drive. With the dual mass flywheel, and the resultant reduction in primary inertia on the crankshaft, the FEAD system was basically going to tear itself apart in short order. With the single mass, it was much better behaved, but it is still one of the roughest engines ever tested.
Most of my testing involved actually trying to lug the engine very low. I found that with the single mass flywheel... it was a practical impossibility to stall it. In high range, you can run it at 500rpm and floor the throttle and it will dig itself out of the hole, albeit very slowly in the higher gears. Things don't really start to happen until about 1500 rpm. In low range, it is basically impossible to stall. I tried everything, 20% grade, from a stop, 1st gear at idle and sidestep the clutch with no throttle. It just lurched forward and climbed the hill at a crawl.
What I was doing was trying to find failure modes in the accessory drive. With the dual mass flywheel, and the resultant reduction in primary inertia on the crankshaft, the FEAD system was basically going to tear itself apart in short order. With the single mass, it was much better behaved, but it is still one of the roughest engines ever tested.
James86004
Expedition Leader
I need a little enlightenment. Was the FEAD system going to tear itself apart because of the torsional vibrations transmitted through the belt?
michaelgroves
Explorer
Is the I5 the TD5?
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
How to answer this...?
The FEAD system is actually a very complicated system. Much more than most people would ever imagine. The torsional vibrations are the forcing function for sure, but all the other accessories act as spring-mass systems. And then the belt tensioner is another big factor. In this case, the engine had one of the highest torsional vibration levels we'd seen, which also happened to line up with a natural frequency of the belt system. Even just sitting at idle (not lugging rpm) and going to lock on the power steering pump resulted in massive amplitude on the tensioner arm, the belt skipping on the alternator... it was a mess.
We would normally rig up a mock engine with the accessories on a rig which was driven by a motor-dyno (fascinating stuff) and input the torsional vibration levels the OEM gave us. We knew we were in big trouble. When we got the truck, I think it was even worse. We'd told LR it was never going to work with the dual-mass, but they wouldn't listen, and didn't want the expense of the solid flywheel system. In the end, it was actually the dual mass flywheel failures which killed it, not our testing on the FEAD.
I think I still have video somewhere, it's pretty interesting to show what they almost brought to market.
Uh, whatever it was from the 06... I believe it was the I5, it was a BMW engine? I don't have any data from the TD5.
The whole thing was a rush job from the start, I'm not sure what happened with the planning, but when Ford bought LR from BMW, they agreed to supply engines for only a fixed time.
CharlieV
Adventurer
Two of the four 110's on the OEX Iceland trip were 07s with the Ford diesel. They called it the courier motor. They had much better low end torque than the TD5, but had a funny way of continuing to increase in revs as the driver took his or her foot of the accelerator to shift. It made finessing the truck difficult in the deep snow. All in all though, I think the consensus was that the new motor was an improvement over the TD5 as far as power goes, cool new hood too.
I am suprised Ford is still messing around with dual mass flywheels after all the problems they have had with the powerstroke diesel. I have a pick-up that's on its 3rd dual mass and clutch setup at 260,000 miles. The springs tend to break after a while and the truck will run very rough.
I am suprised Ford is still messing around with dual mass flywheels after all the problems they have had with the powerstroke diesel. I have a pick-up that's on its 3rd dual mass and clutch setup at 260,000 miles. The springs tend to break after a while and the truck will run very rough.
RgrBox
Adventurer
I have the 2007/08 Defender 110. Great drive is one thing I can say. Although I've never driven any of the older Defenders, I can compare it to my Nissan Patrol. The patrol could drive faster on the Auto-route, but off road the Defender feels better. I', no expert, and I don't understand all of the motor stuff people talk about but I can compare it to other 4x4's I've driven. the first thing I see is that it will roll, like Ron said, in any gear without pushing the gas. You just ease your foot off of the clutch, and off it goes. It is also a smoother when you start off.. my Patrol I used to have to reve it up a bit to drive over the curb. My 100 will do it as smooth as a snoothy. Reverse is also better. It just drives smoother, and what seems slower. I feel I have more control. Sure they've added a bunch of plush plastic to the inside, but all of that pops off for easy access to what's behind the panels. I found this out the other day when the panel on the back wall next too the rear door had popped off. I just pooped it back on, and was able to see the wiring that goes to my rear hatch light mounted about the pannel window passenger rear side. Anyway, I do see a lot of motor under the hood. Seems like too much motor, and I'm sure if I have a problem, I might be in big trouble. But due to Ford being everywhere around here, I'm sure i can get it fixed while on the road on vacation here. OK, if I'm in Northern Sweden fly fishing I might be in trouble, but nothing I can't communicate to someone if needed in trouble.
Another look at the motor.
Inside.
Outside.
If anyone has any questions I can try to answer.
RB
Another look at the motor.
Inside.
Outside.
If anyone has any questions I can try to answer.
RB
diesel_jim
New member
Take a look at Defender2.net, there's plent of sob stories (and also good stories) of Puma 2.4 ownership.
There are a LOT, of differential, brake vacuum pump and paintwork issues. not to mention clutches & gearboxes/flywheels.
There are a LOT, of differential, brake vacuum pump and paintwork issues. not to mention clutches & gearboxes/flywheels.
Doesn't matter, I just read where LR has shut down production of the entire Defender line for 5 months due to the slow economy.
RB: WOW! That is an awesome amount of Rover Porn you posted there.
Me Likey!
Dendy
RB: WOW! That is an awesome amount of Rover Porn you posted there.
Me Likey!
Dendy
The Td5 engine was from 1999-2006 except for ROW markets. the 2007 and forward is the Ford transit engine. The bmw engine was never widely used in the Defender. The South African market did have a 2.8 BMW engine, but it was not sold elsewhere. I am talking model yrs. not calendar yrs.
RgrBox
Adventurer
Thanks for that link Jim...