Battery charger or tender choices? Simple?

Skinhyfish

Observer
I have a 2022 FWC, looking to add some type of charger or tender to my 2x6v lithium batteries while on duty at fire station. Any ideas or simple plug in play units you have all used?

NOCO makes some but don’t know if it will be enough or somewhat quick during my 48hr shift.

thanks love to hear what people of done
 

ThePartyWagon

Active member
Long winded reply here and this subject has been beaten to death but I've always found a lot of the information to be misleading. This is based on my research and experience so I could also be wrong but I'm fairly confident in the following information. If I'm incorrect, someone with more experience will correct me, I'm sure.

We use Noco chargers to keep camper batteries charged in our shop. Plenty of other battery charger manufacturers out there if you don't want a Noco. This simply charges the batteries, nothing more.

The higher the amperage the charger, the faster your batteries can be recharged. We use 5amp chargers to keep batteries topped off, 10amp chargers to charge batteries faster (and the provide some additional features over the 5a). Or, we use the larger pro series chargersfor battery repair, maintenance, charging, etc.

I'm assuming this is a shell, otherwise, you should have a shore power connection on the FWC line of full featured campers.

IOTA is what they use on their full featured campers, that come with shore power connections, but that's a different product in general. IOTA makes a 12v charger/power supply. Most battery chargers, like most Noco chargers, are not meant to be a true shore power/power supply.

The IOTA charger/power supply would need to be integrated into your camper's electrical system and a hole would need to be cut for an outlet pass through. This allows you to use the IOTA device to charge batteries, or, to use the device as a power supply, aka, shore power.


You would need to select the correct IOTA charger, based on amperage, for your application. FWC uses as the DLS-30a/IQ4 charger with the built in IQ4 unit for multistage charging profiles. If anyone wants this unit, who plans on upgrading to lithium batteries down the road, get the DLS-30 with the IQ4 input plug. This allows the use to pick which IQ4 unit they need; AGM, lithium etc.

1666638274911.png

Looks like there's a new verion available,

1666640730175.png

There's a lot of misinformation out there when it comes to using a Noco charger as a shore power solution. On the smaller chargers, <5a, if the charger senses an outgoing load while the charger is attempting to apply current to the battery, it interprets this as a battery that is not holding a charge. We find our 5a chargers, connected to campers, in the fault mode when we're leaving lights on or running accessories in our showroom campers. The 10a Noco Genius can be set to "power supply" but if the load on your batteries exceeds 10a, I'd expect the charger to fault. The power supply mode on the 10a charger is really meant for their 12v outlet adapter, which can be plugged into the charger to run accessories off a 12v receptacle. As far as running it one power supply mode, while connected to batteries, with the intention of running your fridge, lights, fan and furnace, I do not believe it's meant to be used in that fashion.

Long story long, most off the shelf chargers are not designed to be power supplies. Some folks seem to be having luck using them in that fashion though. I'm considering buying a FWC Hawk Shell which does not offer shore power. If I were to integrate a charger/power supply, I'd use one designed for that application like the IOTA unit. If all I wanted to do was charge the batteries, just get a 10a Noco Genius and two days parked at the station should top them off. Remember, you're charging on your way home from a trip and one your way into the station. My assumption is the batteries should be showing up for your shift somewhat recharged. The Noco charger most likely doesn't need to charge your batteries from a 0% state of charge.

Side note because I touched on lithium compatibility and people are asking about that more and more frequently. If I were to go full lithium upgrade, with shore power, I'd go with a National Luna 40a DC-DC, upgrade the camper wiring to 4awg, push the FWC solar wiring to the built in solar controller in the DC40 and in the 3rd DC input on the charger, I'd use a 24v/25a Meanwell AC to DC converter wired to an external plug for shore power. The DC40 charger would take the DC current from the Meanwell converter and then apply the correct charging profile logic to the power provided through the 3rd DC unit.



Other folks might have different insights but that's what I've learned as a Four Wheel Camper dealer and doing my own research into my own camper purchase. Of course, plenty of other systems that can be integrated or configured, this is what I'm familiar with.

Best,
 

4000lbsOfGoat

Well-known member
I would not recommend a NOCO for lithium batteries.

They do not float and will let your batteries run *way* down (around 12.7 volts) before charging again. This means you can have the unit plugged in but find your batteries basically empty when you are ready to leave. NOCO calls this a "feature" but the voltage cutoff is way too low for lithium batteries.
 

Skinhyfish

Observer
Long winded reply here and this subject has been beaten to death but I've always found a lot of the information to be misleading. This is based on my research and experience so I could also be wrong but I'm fairly confident in the following information. If I'm incorrect, someone with more experience will correct me, I'm sure.

We use Noco chargers to keep camper batteries charged in our shop. Plenty of other battery charger manufacturers out there if you don't want a Noco. This simply charges the batteries, nothing more.

The higher the amperage the charger, the faster your batteries can be recharged. We use 5amp chargers to keep batteries topped off, 10amp chargers to charge batteries faster (and the provide some additional features over the 5a). Or, we use the larger pro series chargersfor battery repair, maintenance, charging, etc.

I'm assuming this is a shell, otherwise, you should have a shore power connection on the FWC line of full featured campers.

IOTA is what they use on their full featured campers, that come with shore power connections, but that's a different product in general. IOTA makes a 12v charger/power supply. Most battery chargers, like most Noco chargers, are not meant to be a true shore power/power supply.

The IOTA charger/power supply would need to be integrated into your camper's electrical system and a hole would need to be cut for an outlet pass through. This allows you to use the IOTA device to charge batteries, or, to use the device as a power supply, aka, shore power.


You would need to select the correct IOTA charger, based on amperage, for your application. FWC uses as the DLS-30a/IQ4 charger with the built in IQ4 unit for multistage charging profiles. If anyone wants this unit, who plans on upgrading to lithium batteries down the road, get the DLS-30 with the IQ4 input plug. This allows the use to pick which IQ4 unit they need; AGM, lithium etc.

View attachment 748761

Looks like there's a new verion available,

View attachment 748762

There's a lot of misinformation out there when it comes to using a Noco charger as a shore power solution. On the smaller chargers, <5a, if the charger senses an outgoing load while the charger is attempting to apply current to the battery, it interprets this as a battery that is not holding a charge. We find our 5a chargers, connected to campers, in the fault mode when we're leaving lights on or running accessories in our showroom campers. The 10a Noco Genius can be set to "power supply" but if the load on your batteries exceeds 10a, I'd expect the charger to fault. The power supply mode on the 10a charger is really meant for their 12v outlet adapter, which can be plugged into the charger to run accessories off a 12v receptacle. As far as running it one power supply mode, while connected to batteries, with the intention of running your fridge, lights, fan and furnace, I do not believe it's meant to be used in that fashion.

Long story long, most off the shelf chargers are not designed to be power supplies. Some folks seem to be having luck using them in that fashion though. I'm considering buying a FWC Hawk Shell which does not offer shore power. If I were to integrate a charger/power supply, I'd use one designed for that application like the IOTA unit. If all I wanted to do was charge the batteries, just get a 10a Noco Genius and two days parked at the station should top them off. Remember, you're charging on your way home from a trip and one your way into the station. My assumption is the batteries should be showing up for your shift somewhat recharged. The Noco charger most likely doesn't need to charge your batteries from a 0% state of charge.

Side note because I touched on lithium compatibility and people are asking about that more and more frequently. If I were to go full lithium upgrade, with shore power, I'd go with a National Luna 40a DC-DC, upgrade the camper wiring to 4awg, push the FWC solar wiring to the built in solar controller in the DC40 and in the 3rd DC input on the charger, I'd use a 24v/25a Meanwell AC to DC converter wired to an external plug for shore power. The DC40 charger would take the DC current from the Meanwell converter and then apply the correct charging profile logic to the power provided through the 3rd DC unit.



Other folks might have different insights but that's what I've learned as a Four Wheel Camper dealer and doing my own research into my own camper purchase. Of course, plenty of other systems that can be integrated or configured, this is what I'm familiar with.

Best,

best answer I have ever gotten on here. Thank you so much
 

dstefan

Well-known member
@ThePartyWagon ‘s info is great, and I’m bookmarking it for future reference. I also second his recco of the NL DCDC unit. I have the 25amp one for my camper 100ah Battleborn.

If you’re looking for a smaller, simpler occasional charger setup, The 15 amp Victron Blue Smart charger has many virtues. Great profiles, including Lithium, can be easily setup for custom profiles, and can serve as a 12V power source. Also, at around $85 doesn't break the bank. I use it for both my AGM starter and the Battleborn to get them to their happy places in terms of peak voltage, especially when my rig sits for weeks as it does.
 

ThePartyWagon

Active member
I would not recommend a NOCO for lithium batteries.

They do not float and will let your batteries run *way* down (around 12.7 volts) before charging again. This means you can have the unit plugged in but find your batteries basically empty when you are ready to leave. NOCO calls this a "feature" but the voltage cutoff is way too low for lithium batteries.

Interesting. Isn't the once daily top off essentially a float charge? If the battery is topped off once daily, as their website says, I don't see how a battery would ever get to the 12.6v depth of discharge. Are these issues you've experienced firsthand? Super curious about this because we sell a lot of them and have never had any negative feedback.
1666646613915.png
Battleborn, for example, says their batteries will see a voltage drop of 2-3% each month when left sitting, disconnected from a charger. Not all batteries are exactly the same but most quality lithium batteries would have to sit long term for this to be an issue. I could see this potentially being an issue for someone who doesn't use their batteries for >5 months a year but I don't think that's the average use case for a lithium battery user in this community. There's no blanket use case but, based on my experience, the folks going with lithium tend to use their electrical systems more consistently. The investment to get into a lithium set up is steep for folks who only camp a few times a year.

Even if that was a concern, in a typical overland application designed for lithium batteries, a DC-DC charger is going to be integrated. At that point, if a lithium battery sat long term and dropped 2-3% each month, a few hours of drive time should top that battery off before arriving in camp (unless camp is <1 hour away). Add solar to the equation and I'm even less concerned about the risk of a battery sitting until it hits 12.6v.

At this point, I don't see the concern if the Noco chargers top off a lithium battery daily like the company says they do. That's the key though, does it do exactly what they're saying. Fill me in if there's more to this, always up for learning something new!
 

ThePartyWagon

Active member
@ThePartyWagon ‘s info is great, and I’m bookmarking it for future reference. I also second his recco of the NL DCDC unit. I have the 25amp one for my camper 100ah Battleborn.

If you’re looking for a smaller, simpler occasional charger setup, The 15 amp Victron Blue Smart charger has many virtues. Great profiles, including Lithium, can be easily setup for custom profiles, and can serve as a 12V power source. Also, at around $85 doesn't break the bank. I use it for both my AGM starter and the Battleborn to get them to their happy places in terms of peak voltage, especially when my rig sits for weeks as it does.

Can't go wrong with Victron! Never used one of their battery chargers but I'd expect it to be top notch quality like the rest of their products.
 

Photobug

Well-known member
My Noco's have done fine by me. I have a 1 amp 7 and 10 amp Nocos. I have never had a problem keeping the Lithium batteries topped off. Between all my vehicles I have over a dozen batteries to keep charged throughout the year and have the plugs on the batteries so i can move the battery from one battery to the other once a month to keep the batteries topped off.

One thing to keep in mind is lead acid batteries wants to be topped off at all times to keep longest life. A lithium battery is better at a less than full charge and top it off when ready to be used. The voltage on a Lithium is not like a lead acid, you can't rely on a voltage reading the same way you do with a lead acid battery. It is best to have some kind of battery monitor on your lithium so you know where you are as far as capacity. The Victron BMV 712 is a good monitor. I have a cheaper one in my setup that has also worked well.
 

4000lbsOfGoat

Well-known member
Are these issues you've experienced firsthand?
At this point, I don't see the concern if the Noco chargers top off a lithium battery daily like the company says they do. That's the key though, does it do exactly what they're saying. Fill me in if there's more to this, always up for learning something new!
I have experienced this firsthand on more than one occasion. Specifically when staying in a campground with hookups. We didn't spend much time in campgrounds, but on 2 occasions when we were "plugged in" for 3-4 days I found that my batteries were all but dead when I was ready to leave. As far as I could tell, the batteries were not "topped up daily". They just ran down for 3 days. I mean, it did show me that my batteries will handle my normal load for 4 days but that wasn't what I was going for...If I wasn't set up to charge from the alternator while driving I would have been in a bad way.

Now that I know how the charger behaves I work around it by unplugging then plugging back in the night before I'm going to travel.
 

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