INEOS Grenadier

nickw

Adventurer
I read through that....was a bit surprised at pricing, I think folks thought these were going to be much cheaper than the ~$80k price point they seem to be suggesting.....less than $80k means well into the $70's for a base model which seems about right for a low(ish) production model rig....
 

MarcusBrody

Active member
I keep hearing people say 'analog' and 'mechanical' related to the Grenadier but I don't see how the Grenadier is any more mechanical / analog other options out there. For instance several modern vehicles still have manual tcases and having a "lever" doesn't mean fully mechanical....some still use solenoids for actual engagement along with front axle disconnects, I don't see where this is described in any of the Ineos literature to know for certain.

It does have a hand brake....so do several modern vehicles.

It does have a keyed ignition....so do several vehicles, funny thing about that, my 2019 Ranger had a keyed ignition but like the Tcase example above, once I turned it....it effectively triggered the same auto start up procedure as a button did vs old school true keyed / manual start up, Ineos may be sim.

It has the drivetrain from any modern BMW along with a infotainment screen and a bunch of electronic buttons - none of which is simple or analog like an OG cruiser or rover.

I think the new Bronco and modern Jeeps are the most 'mechanical' vehicles out there since they have manual Tcases but more importantly manual Trans....

Cool rig for sure - hopefully none of that came across disparaging.
I think the issue is that while some cars still have those things, they're not expected to for much longer. And while it has an infotainment screen, you don't control much through it, you get individual buttons. I actually am totally fine with most updates (electronically engaged transfer cases for instance, though I would prefer a manual e-brake), but I hate the Trent to controlling everything via touch screen.

But I think the key here is that it's largely being built in comparison to the new defender, though in the US it might compete with the Wrangler/Bronco.
 

MarcusBrody

Active member
I read through that....was a bit surprised at pricing, I think folks thought these were going to be much cheaper than the ~$80k price point they seem to be suggesting.....less than $80k means well into the $70's for a base model which seems about right for a low(ish) production model rig....
Yep, at 70k+ I'm not interested. Well, I'm interested as it's cool, but I'm not buying one. Thats more than I'd be willing to pay for an ICE vehicle at this point even though I really like the form factor.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
I keep hearing people say 'analog' and 'mechanical' related to the Grenadier but I don't see how the Grenadier is any more mechanical / analog other options out there. For instance several modern vehicles still have manual tcases and having a "lever" doesn't mean fully mechanical....some still use solenoids for actual engagement along with front axle disconnects, I don't see where this is described in any of the Ineos literature to know for certain.

It does have a hand brake....so do several modern vehicles.

It does have a keyed ignition....so do several vehicles, funny thing about that, my 2019 Ranger had a keyed ignition but like the Tcase example above, once I turned it....it effectively triggered the same auto start up procedure as a button did vs old school true keyed / manual start up, Ineos may be sim.

It has the drivetrain from any modern BMW along with a infotainment screen and a bunch of electronic buttons - none of which is simple or analog like an OG cruiser or rover.

I think the new Bronco and modern Jeeps are the most 'mechanical' vehicles out there since they have manual Tcases but more importantly manual Trans....

Cool rig for sure - hopefully none of that came across disparaging.

Not disparaging at all NickW, I think those are fair critiques as Ineos needs to do a very good job of justifying why this is different, as compared to the other vehicles available. Especially at this asking price. I’ve been neck-deep in this vehicle’s news and information for a long time though, and I think I can speak to what I’ve come to learn is “different” about this vehicle. Of course, having never seen one in person or used one, this entire opinion is based on speculation and trusting of sources, like Ineos, when they say something. So far I have no reason to distrust them, but I’m well aware this could all be marketing BS and the proof will be in the pudding.

But, having watched the pudding be made by the chefs, here’s my thoughts:

First, what vehicles really compare to the Grenadier? The Jeep does, to a degree, as do mid-sized trucks. But the Ineos is playing in a different segment. Solid axles, diff locks, etc. make it go toe-to-toe with the Jeep Rubicon, but it’s payload and capacity numbers are closer to the Superduty/2500-series of HD trucks. So, it’s kind of uniquely positioned like this Venn diagram I drew up:

3317E17E-564B-4337-AFFD-14C49E59EE1E.png

So as far as a market segment, it’s uniquely positioned. In some ways, the only other wagon that truly competes with the Grenadier (on paper) is the new Defender, and that brings me to the question of Analog vs Digital.

The New Defender has more microchips than the Ineos has parts (that’s a tongue-in-cheek exageration bit the point is the ND is very heavily reliant on microprocessors doing what they are designed to do in order to get the vehicle to perform). And it’s VERY good. Probably a bit better than the Ineos off-road, if I’m being honest, and almost certainly better on-road. JLR’s Terrain Response system is exceptional.

Until it breaks, and you need at least one entire Land Rover dealership (Sometimes more than one, if you are TFL!) to get the car fixed again.

That’s where Ineos started from: How do we build a vehicle that is going to be used in conditions where breakages are a certainty? That means that it’s more than just the “analog vs digital”, it’s about simplicity of field repair and durability of components. Again, this is all what we’ve been told - but the images released seem to back up this approach as it all appears very simple to work on. If I crack a control arm on my New Defender 15 hours from Ulan Batar, Mongolia, am I going to find someone who can weld up the cast aluminum? Probably not.

Let’s contrast this with the new Jeeps because they are closer in concept to what the Ineos is, but even then — Jeeps design philosophy has not been about simplicity, it’s been about preservation of key things (ladder frame, removable roof, solid axles) in the design. But complexity creeps its way in to the jeeps, too - Depending on the engine choice, you may have an auxiliary battery in a new Jeep that, if you mess about the wrong way, can cause you to be stranded in the back of beyond — it happened to the Expedition Overland guys. They had a heck of a time diagnosing and figuring it out because it was a complex add-on that didn’t really contribute to the adventure-ready status of the vehicle at all. There are not supposed to be any systems like that on the Grenadier.

I’m not just talking about features or systems — I’m trying to illustrate that the fundamental approach to design for the Grenadier seems unlike most vehicles available today (with the possible exception of the 70-series but it’s hard to compare the Gren against a 30-year old design). In the Grenadier, the front seats have a cubby hole under them. This is the perfect place for a jacket or rain shell, but no modern 4x4 has a space there. I still use that space on my rig, and the end result is my jacket gets occasionally caught in the seat tracks and rips. The Cubby is a design choice that shows, to me, that Ineos has looked at the needs of the end-user and designed a car for them. And there are quite a few little things like this about it that stand out to me. Even something like the dual horn — being able to give a light “toot” instead of blaring a horn is fantastic when there’s a wild animal in the track; how can we ask the Bison nicely to move on without scaring the crap out of it? I’ve run into that a few times and the answer was “you don’t” if you only have one, really loud horn option. I’m sure the cyclist appreciate the dual volume too :D

Another example - every modern 4x4 comes with a bloated and slow infotainment system. Ineos says “Nah. They are out of date before they leave the lot. Let’s minimize the built in stuff and rely on people’s phones, since they are gonna do that anyway, and it’s easier to update”. This is a fundamental design choice, not just a convenience, and I think it’s these choices that set them apart. Similarly, the 3D exploding parts diagrams, available for free, are unlike any other manufacturer who usually hide their service and parts ecosystems from the end users.

So it’s less about whether the vehicle is analog or digital — though for simplicity sake and robustness, it’s as analog as a modern car can be — and more about WHY they are trying to go for more analog than digital; it’s because the entire design philosophy appears to be unique in the automotive world today, and that’s why the Gren is shaping up to be the perfect Overlander for me.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I think the issue is that while some cars still have those things, they're not expected to for much longer. And while it has an infotainment screen, you don't control much through it, you get individual buttons. I actually am totally fine with most updates (electronically engaged transfer cases for instance, though I would prefer a manual e-brake), but I hate the Trent to controlling everything via touch screen.

But I think the key here is that it's largely being built in comparison to the new defender, though in the US it might compete with the Wrangler/Bronco.
I hate touch screens too, seems like most rigs these days have both touch and buttons though, at least my last Ranger did along with my new Ram 2500. I do like manual Tcases, which was an option on my Ram, but if it's manual + solenoid + front axle disconnect it honestly doesn't really matter as it relies on a computer anyway.

The engine in this is extremely complex, like most BMW engines. I am not familiar with the specifics of it, the info doesn't seem to be out there, but the std. BMW B58 engine that Ineos is using and what several BMW Sedan and SUV's use along with the new Supra are not built for easy maintenance or harsh conditions, but performance at a price point. We've had several BMW's, Audis and VW's over the years....no problems, so not a hater....but I also hear stories of trying to work on these things which is very complex, expensive and difficult.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Not disparaging at all NickW, I think those are fair critiques as Ineos needs to do a very good job of justifying why this is different, as compared to the other vehicles available. Especially at this asking price. I’ve been neck-deep in this vehicle’s news and information for a long time though, and I think I can speak to what I’ve come to learn is “different” about this vehicle. Of course, having never seen one in person or used one, this entire opinion is based on speculation and trusting of sources, like Ineos, when they say something. So far I have no reason to distrust them, but I’m well aware this could all be marketing BS and the proof will be in the pudding.

But, having watched the pudding be made by the chefs, here’s my thoughts:

First, what vehicles really compare to the Grenadier? The Jeep does, to a degree, as do mid-sized trucks. But the Ineos is playing in a different segment. Solid axles, diff locks, etc. make it go toe-to-toe with the Jeep Rubicon, but it’s payload and capacity numbers are closer to the Superduty/2500-series of HD trucks. So, it’s kind of uniquely positioned like this Venn diagram I drew up:

View attachment 684804

So as far as a market segment, it’s uniquely positioned. In some ways, the only other wagon that truly competes with the Grenadier (on paper) is the new Defender, and that brings me to the question of Analog vs Digital.

The New Defender has more microchips than the Ineos has parts (that’s a tongue-in-cheek exageration bit the point is the ND is very heavily reliant on microprocessors doing what they are designed to do in order to get the vehicle to perform). And it’s VERY good. Probably a bit better than the Ineos off-road, if I’m being honest, and almost certainly better on-road. JLR’s Terrain Response system is exceptional.

Until it breaks, and you need at least one entire Land Rover dealership (Sometimes more than one, if you are TFL!) to get the car fixed again.

That’s where Ineos started from: How do we build a vehicle that is going to be used in conditions where breakages are a certainty? That means that it’s more than just the “analog vs digital”, it’s about simplicity of field repair and durability of components. Again, this is all what we’ve been told - but the images released seem to back up this approach as it all appears very simple to work on. If I crack a control arm on my New Defender 15 hours from Ulan Batar, Mongolia, am I going to find someone who can weld up the cast aluminum? Probably not.

Let’s contrast this with the new Jeeps because they are closer in concept to what the Ineos is, but even then — Jeeps design philosophy has not been about simplicity, it’s been about preservation of key things (ladder frame, removable roof, solid axles) in the design. But complexity creeps its way in to the jeeps, too - Depending on the engine choice, you may have an auxiliary battery in a new Jeep that, if you mess about the wrong way, can cause you to be stranded in the back of beyond — it happened to the Expedition Overland guys. They had a heck of a time diagnosing and figuring it out because it was a complex add-on that didn’t really contribute to the adventure-ready status of the vehicle at all. There are not supposed to be any systems like that on the Grenadier.

I’m not just talking about features or systems — I’m trying to illustrate that the fundamental approach to design for the Grenadier seems unlike most vehicles available today (with the possible exception of the 70-series but it’s hard to compare the Gren against a 30-year old design). In the Grenadier, the front seats have a cubby hole under them. This is the perfect place for a jacket or rain shell, but no modern 4x4 has a space there. I still use that space on my rig, and the end result is my jacket gets occasionally caught in the seat tracks and rips. The Cubby is a design choice that shows, to me, that Ineos has looked at the needs of the end-user and designed a car for them. And there are quite a few little things like this about it that stand out to me. Even something like the dual horn — being able to give a light “toot” instead of blaring a horn is fantastic when there’s a wild animal in the track; how can we ask the Bison nicely to move on without scaring the crap out of it? I’ve run into that a few times and the answer was “you don’t” if you only have one, really loud horn option. I’m sure the cyclist appreciate the dual volume too :D

Another example - every modern 4x4 comes with a bloated and slow infotainment system. Ineos says “Nah. They are out of date before they leave the lot. Let’s minimize the built in stuff and rely on people’s phones, since they are gonna do that anyway, and it’s easier to update”. This is a fundamental design choice, not just a convenience, and I think it’s these choices that set them apart. Similarly, the 3D exploding parts diagrams, available for free, are unlike any other manufacturer who usually hide their service and parts ecosystems from the end users.

So it’s less about whether the vehicle is analog or digital — though for simplicity sake and robustness, it’s as analog as a modern car can be — and more about WHY they are trying to go for more analog than digital; it’s because the entire design philosophy appears to be unique in the automotive world today, and that’s why the Gren is shaping up to be the perfect Overlander for me.
Well said COT, can absolutely see your point and agree. I like the Venn diagram - illustrates the point perfectly.

I'm actually excited about this thing, I like modern rigs and comforts....but also like some simplicity built in also....this seems to nail that middle-ground that many folks are after. We have (2) BMW dealerships within 10 min of my house, if I can drop this thing off (a big concern of mine originally) what a huge advantage. I also appreciate the fact that the Engine and Trans are designed to work as a unit...BMW has gotten that figured out....

We have a modern X5 now w/B58 engine....it's great.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
I read through that....was a bit surprised at pricing, I think folks thought these were going to be much cheaper than the ~$80k price point they seem to be suggesting.....less than $80k means well into the $70's for a base model which seems about right for a low(ish) production model rig....
Yep, at 70k+ I'm not interested. Well, I'm interested as it's cool, but I'm not buying one. Thats more than I'd be willing to pay for an ICE vehicle at this point even though I really like the form factor.


I think it depends on what it comes with, but I do agree that it is more than I had hoped. Still, maybe not bad value which is the big measure for me. They have said that this price point is a “well equipped” vehicle, so for price points I wouldn’t compare this to a basic Jeep Sport for example. There’s also a question of MSRP versus actual sale prices. Vehicle prices are crazy right now due to the Microchip shortage. I can’t get a Jeep Gladiator Rubicon — which in specs is the closest Jeep available to the Ineos — for under $70k here, and there’s quite a few listed for the mid-$80s. Even before the chip shortage, this was pretty normal pricing for years, as before I got out of my JK and into my Canyon, I was looking at Gladiators instead but couldn’t justify the $80k+ price tag. As for the other competition, the New Defender would be a lot more pricey than this if similarly equipped.

I’m not saying the Grenadiers are cheap, but I think they have a good chance of being reasonable value compared to the competition which is also not cheap, and frankly I don’t want a “cheap” truck — I want an expensive truck where the expense is to cover the costs of a solidly built vehicle, like one with tractor axles and a stupidly strong ladder frame. To me, that’s better than an expensive truck where the expense is to use super light aluminum composites to reduce weight and get a better CAFE rating. But I’ll reserve judgement for a few years - we’ve also been seeing 5% plus inflation the past few months, so who knows what the actual final price will be!
 

nickw

Adventurer
I think it depends on what it comes with, but I do agree that it is more than I had hoped. Still, maybe not bad value which is the big measure for me. They have said that this price point is a “well equipped” vehicle, so for price points I wouldn’t compare this to a basic Jeep Sport for example. There’s also a question of MSRP versus actual sale prices. Vehicle prices are crazy right now due to the Microchip shortage. I can’t get a Jeep Gladiator Rubicon — which in specs is the closest Jeep available to the Ineos — for under $70k here, and there’s quite a few listed for the mid-$80s. Even before the chip shortage, this was pretty normal pricing for years, as before I got out of my JK and into my Canyon, I was looking at Gladiators instead but couldn’t justify the $80k+ price tag. As for the other competition, the New Defender would be a lot more pricey than this if similarly equipped.

I’m not saying the Grenadiers are cheap, but I think they have a good chance of being reasonable value compared to the competition which is also not cheap, and frankly I don’t want a “cheap” truck — I want an expensive truck where the expense is to cover the costs of a solidly built vehicle, like one with tractor axles and a stupidly strong ladder frame. To me, that’s better than an expensive truck where the expense is to use super light aluminum composites to reduce weight and get a better CAFE rating. But I’ll reserve judgement for a few years - we’ve also been seeing 5% plus inflation the past few months, so who knows what the actual final price will be!
Judging by the ridiculous ADM's dealers are putting on rigs these days it will be interesting.

I've seen upwards of $15k on top of MSRP for special rigs, Broncos and Raptors (in the past)....are these being sold direct? What is the dealer network going to look like?
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Judging by the ridiculous ADM's dealers are putting on rigs these days it will be interesting.

I've seen upwards of $15k on top of MSRP for special rigs, Broncos and Raptors (in the past)....are these being sold direct? What is the dealer network going to look like?

From what I understand, there’s a couple of sales methods.

1) Direct to Consumer via the Website
2) A dealer network.

However, the dealer network is VERY different from a typical car company - from what I read and hear on videos, they are planning on using existing “off road” experts — picture the kind of place you’d buy a KTM motorbike or Honda 4-wheeler, and that will be the kind of spot you can buy a Grenadier. This makes sense to me and is exactly what I hoped they would do - every small town has at least one garage with a Kawasaki sign out front, and that’s the kind of business that will be able to service and sell these things, which means I don’t need to worry about being a 10 hour drive from the nearest BMW dealer, who tend to only be in major Cities (Edmonton BMW —> 6 hour drive —> Saskatoon BMW —-> 9 more hours —> Winnipeg BMW; that’s a lot of territory between help if that was the only option).

Totally agree with you on the ADMs. It’s the whole market though - even used vehicles are going for more now than they cost new in 2019. Granted COVID has kept a lot of these vehicles pretty low mileage, but we’re talking about basic work trucks, not Jag E-types!
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
I hate touch screens too, seems like most rigs these days have both touch and buttons though, at least my last Ranger did along with my new Ram 2500. I do like manual Tcases, which was an option on my Ram, but if it's manual + solenoid + front axle disconnect it honestly doesn't really matter as it relies on a computer anyway.

The engine in this is extremely complex, like most BMW engines. I am not familiar with the specifics of it, the info doesn't seem to be out there, but the std. BMW B58 engine that Ineos is using and what several BMW Sedan and SUV's use along with the new Supra are not built for easy maintenance or harsh conditions, but performance at a price point. We've had several BMW's, Audis and VW's over the years....no problems, so not a hater....but I also hear stories of trying to work on these things which is very complex, expensive and difficult.

I’m leap-frogging posts a bit; sorry for the multiple replies in row!

I am a bit nervous about the complexity of the engine. They are reliable though as you’ve said, but I’ve heard rumours of BMW routing oil through the altnernator bracket of some of their designs (??? Madness!). That makes me wonder about Bush Proofness. But, I’ve also heard that part of Ineos’ deal was to “De-BMW-ify” the engines a bit (for instance they have a drain plug in the oil pan instead of needing to use a vacuum pump). I wonder how far they went in this effort as it might mean that it’s easier than I expect.

The ”Hope-ium” is strong in some of my posts though :D
 

MarcusBrody

Active member
I think it depends on what it comes with, but I do agree that it is more than I had hoped. Still, maybe not bad value which is the big measure for me. They have said that this price point is a “well equipped” vehicle, so for price points I wouldn’t compare this to a basic Jeep Sport for example. There’s also a question of MSRP versus actual sale prices. Vehicle prices are crazy right now due to the Microchip shortage. I can’t get a Jeep Gladiator Rubicon — which in specs is the closest Jeep available to the Ineos — for under $70k here, and there’s quite a few listed for the mid-$80s. Even before the chip shortage, this was pretty normal pricing for years, as before I got out of my JK and into my Canyon, I was looking at Gladiators instead but couldn’t justify the $80k+ price tag. As for the other competition, the New Defender would be a lot more pricey than this if similarly equipped.

I’m not saying the Grenadiers are cheap, but I think they have a good chance of being reasonable value compared to the competition which is also not cheap, and frankly I don’t want a “cheap” truck — I want an expensive truck where the expense is to cover the costs of a solidly built vehicle, like one with tractor axles and a stupidly strong ladder frame. To me, that’s better than an expensive truck where the expense is to use super light aluminum composites to reduce weight and get a better CAFE rating. But I’ll reserve judgement for a few years - we’ve also been seeing 5% plus inflation the past few months, so who knows what the actual final price will be!

I'm don't mean to imply that the Grenadier won't be "worth" the 70k plus price. It very well may be. I personally am not comfortable spending that much on a vehicle like it at this point. The email said that putting in a deposit now would get you in line to order in Late 2022. So that means I wouldn't expect delivery until 2023 (or really 2024 as it's a new company). If I'm spending 70k+ on a vehicle, I plan on using it for a decade plus, and I just don't think I'm going to want to be driving a vehicle with (sub) 20 mpg in 2034 and beyond. For someone like yourself who will use it professionally or for a shorter term around the world trip, it's a different calculus for sure.

Because they mentioned Jeeps and Defenders in the past, I was more imagining it falling around 50k. Still not cheap, but not in my "this must be the perfect vehicle on almost all dimensions" range. Is that just mental when I could in theory afford either or buy a 25k Ford Maverick and drive it for decade? Yep. But it is what it is.

In the bright side, I've had good luck with BMW engines and this one seems to have been out a few years so I imagine the kinks are getting worked out. I wouldnt expect it to be easy to fix on the side of the road in Namibia, but I would also expect it to be pretty reliable (though I'd want to read more about its specifics).
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Totally hear you MarcusBrody - I didn't take your post as suggesting it wasn't good value at all. My commenting was just my thoughts on where that money has gone in this vehicle as compared to others, and how that makes me comfortable with it, but it will be a big bite. The big reason I went with my Canyon over the Gladiator was price, and it wasn't just a drop in the bucket - I could buy my Canyon twice for the price of the Gladiator and have enough left over for a new motorbike. I happen to think the Canyon is a fantastic vehicle, but it's hard to justify $80k+ on an adventure vehicle when that little truck performs so well. Depending on how our situation shapes up, we still may decide to stick with our truck and put the Grenadier money towards travelling. We're a few years out right now so lots can change between now and then!
 

Beowulf

Expedition Leader
Oh that’d be awesome!! I wonder how they will work through the roof mounted electronics panel.
I think in the troopy, the portion above the driver and passenger is untouched….. not 100%. I need to pay attention and watch some videos.
 

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