New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Corgi_express]

The Bronco looks like a fun truck to play in the woods, and from what I’ve seen so far I think I would pick it over the Wrangler. It has a fun look, but looks aren’t everything... luckily they got a lot right for off roading too and it looks like a better all around vehicle than the Wrangler, which is optimized for rock crawling.

The low payload and towing capacity means it’s probably not going to compete with the Defender for me, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t end up owning one down the line. I like it quite a bit.


... see, it IS possible to enjoy and even prefer one vehicle without making petty jabs at other brands. The new Bronco looks good for what it was shooting for, and I hope they knock it out of the park.

 

[T-Willy]

The Bronco looks like a fun truck to play in the woods, and from what I’ve seen so far I think I would pick it over the Wrangler. It has a fun look, but looks aren’t everything... luckily they got a lot right for off roading too and it looks like a better all around vehicle than the Wrangler, which is optimized for rock crawling.

The low payload and towing capacity means it’s probably not going to compete with the Defender for me, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t end up owning one down the line. I like it quite a bit.


... see, it IS possible to enjoy and even prefer one vehicle without making petty jabs at other brands. The new Bronco looks good for what it was shooting for, and I hope they knock it out of the park.

Same. Bronco’s fantastic for what it is but its payload is disqualifying for me. No ten day self supported trips in trips that truck.

 

[TexasTJ]

What are y’all taking with you into the backcountry? I have been climbing for 10 day in the Canadian Rockies and carried everything I needed to live on my back. Ps this was when I was 37 and 6 month after I broke my back. The Grenadier Maybe Great, but sounds like y’all Be bringing to much stuff.

 

[Buliwyf]

What's your load out for 10 days?

An RTT, winch, rack, and my camp gear total is under 1000# easy. Maybe ya'll should lose the 50# Transformer Autobot stoves.

 

[JeepColorado]

I've always found it interesting that so many LR loyalist on here make such a big deal about payload when many adventure experts talk about how you should be minimalists. Scott Brady routinely talks about not even liking to have a roof load at all and how motorcycle adventurers carry less gear to go around the world than you could carry in the passenger seat of any SUV. What are you carrying that you need that much payload?

I've wondered if it's not that it's literally the ONE feature that the LR has so they cling to it like it's the final thread they can grip of an old dead dream of glory days gone by.

Jeep is teasing a Hemi in the Wrangler, Ford absolutely crushed LR in the resurrection department and Toyota hasn't even weighed in yet with their new 4Runner and LC 300 and now they know what benchmarks they have to hit. With the Grenadier and now the Bronco the Defender is already becoming a distant memory- once "Yota speaks it may be dead to anyone but the most loyal of the Green Oval faithful who still believe Gerry McGovern actually cares about life off of pavement.

 

[T-Willy]

Defender has higher payload but Ford checked a lot of boxes for a majority of the market. Volume wise this won't even be close, a Bronco win.

Agree. Bronco, while not a touring truck, will surely outsel Defender in the U.S.

 

[Carson G]

Payload matters a lot if you have a family.

 

[Carson G]

I've always found it interesting that so many LR loyalist on here make such a big deal about payload when many adventure experts talk about how you should be minimalists. Scott Brady routinely talks about not even liking to have a roof load at all and how motorcycle adventurers carry less gear to go around the world than you could carry in the passenger seat of any SUV. What are you carrying that you need that much payload?

I've wondered if it's not that it's literally the ONE feature that the LR has so they cling to it like it's the final thread they can grip of an old dead dream of glory days gone by.

Jeep is teasing a Hemi in the Wrangler, Ford absolutely crushed LR in the resurrection department and Toyota hasn't even weighed in yet with their new 4Runner and LC 300 and now they know what benchmarks they have to hit. With the Grenadier and now the Bronco the Defender is already becoming a distant memory- once "Yota speaks it may be dead to anyone but the most loyal of the Green Oval faithful who still believe Gerry McGovern actually cares about life off of pavement.

The 4 Runner isn’t in quite the same market as the Defender. I’d honestly be surprised if there is a LC300 in the US. My current favorites right now are the Defender and a chopped 200 with a PCOR. One of those two will be what I inevitably replace my Discovery 3 with. I love the Gladiator and the Bronco but they don’t hit all of my requirements.

 

[TexasTJ]

Payload matters a lot if you have a family.

youtube Epic Family Road Trip. I just have a Wife Kid and Golden Retriever so we may need less stuff.

 

[T-Willy]

Yes, let's talk payload.

Let's ballpark (from my set-up) the math for ten days of self-supported remote camps in the border country, or the Pinacate, in winter.

Three or four people: 600 lbs
Water: One gallon plus ten percent per-person per-day for three people -- and five emergency gallons: 315 lbs
Other drinks: 25 lbs
Campteq pop top with mattress: 150 lbs
Cooler, food, ice: 200 lbs
Repair box (fluids, tools): 25 lbs
Kitchen: 25 lbs
Other personal gear: 150 lbs
25 gallons aux gas: 150 lbs

Total: ~1700

That's ~300 and ~600 lbs over Bronco or Wrangler's payloads, respectively. But it's more than ~200 lbs under the payload of new Defender, my old 80 Series, or Grenadier, which is aiming north of 2000 lbs. Add people, days, or toys, and that number grows.

A good way to destroy a new truck is on rough roads while exceeding payload. Ideally, for sake of vehicle preservation, one stays below that payload, and especially on rough roads.

This is what distinguishes a touring wagon from an otherwise capable four-wheel drive: Capability under load.

I know this isn't how everyone travels or uses their wagons (be that for work or play) but for some of us it is, and so payload does matter.

 

[TexasTJ]

I have never been off grid that long with a car. At some point I always leave it behind warped in chicken wire to keep the Porcupines out of the Coolant. Other wise like everywhere in North America food and water can be had... you should look in to getting a gravity filter for your water. 300ld is a ton for any trip when all you need a filter and a pond. Where do you live if you don't mind me asking? Alaska? (not trying to be a jerk really would like to know)

 

[T-Willy]

I have never been off grid that long with a car. At some point I always leave it behind warped in chicken wire to keep the Porcupines out of the Coolant. Other wise like everywhere in North America food and water can be had... you should look in to getting a gravity filter for your water. 300ld is a ton for any trip when all you need a filter and a pond. Where do you live if you don't mind me asking? Alaska? (not trying to be a jerk really would like to know)

Arizona. Water filters require... Water.

 

[Highlander]

In terms of the design and shapes Ford has absolutely rocked it. Bronco is true to its origins and character.
In terms of payload numbers, well It is not meant for log distance touring, but rather having a blast with you pals in Baja or Mhoab.
I like a lot.
People make fun of Ford as if it is a brand for retarded rednecks that can't really design a charismatic car, but in reality they are very serious about their product. Take a look of the new F-150. They have put so many amazing features that every overlander should be exited about.

This weekend I went to see a new Def in New Jersey.
There were two Defs on the lot. The one was fully loaded and the other one somewhat modest. It was around 65k. They were both already sold. I could not drive it but I set inside and got to examine it.
I have to admit, it's is very very well designed and thought out vehicle. Everything is neat, simple, roomy and accessible. I felt very comfortable inside.
The entire thing made sense. In terms of size It was not big, but just enough.
There are no stupid people at LR, they just deiced to go to a very different direction. Now whether we like that direction or not is another question.

After this I don't even know what to make of the new Defender. One hand It has got the best payload and towing numbers and on the hand it has got very complicated technology that might fail.
If they start importing the very strip down version with simplified suspensions I may like it more.

I asked the dealer if they had a Def with the 2.0 engine and he said no and it's very unlikely they will ever option it with that engine even when it's officially available in the states.
So I suspect that in the big metropolitan areas the most of the Defs one may find on the lot will be high trim ones.

 

[soflorovers]

This new Bronco has really changed my perspective on the whole "Is it a real Defender?" conversation. After careful consideration, I must concede that the new Defender has strayed a bit from the roots/spirit of the original vehicle, and is more akin to what a proper "LR5/D5" probably should have been. Is that a bad thing? Not at all. I also believe that many individuals on this forum are very forgetful of the history behind the original Defender. Imagine the outrage in 1983 when LR removed the stepped front end from the Series III and made the conversion to *GASP* coil springs. Furthermore, most people forget that NAS 90's (You know, the car that most people on this forum consider a "Real" Defender) were luxury cars compared to their ROW counterparts. By modern standards it's completely spartan, but back in the day you have to remember that it came with the same V8 as the contemporary Range Rover, optional AC, alloy wheels, an automatic transmission option, and various configurations (Fiberglass hardtop, softop, fastback). Furthermore, if you compare the old NAS 90 to a D1, you'd realize that the new Defender really isn't that radical of a departure in terms of "spirit"; it has many similarities with the new D5 such as similar motors, architecture, layout, pricing, etc... Viewed through that lens, it was kinda expected that the new Defender was going to be very similar to the D5.

For everyone that wanted the D110 to stay agricultural, I still maintain that the 2020 Defender needed to move upmarket. JLR has spent the last 20 years refining their air suspension systems and there's no way they were going to make this new Defender a solid axle vehicle. With that said, the only way to build the new Defender and price it accordingly was to move it upmarket; for everyone that was planning to turn their D110 into a beater workhorse fire pumper, tow truck or tractor, this was terrible news. For the rest of us however, the new Defender actually became a more appealing overall proposition. I've had the opportunity to drive a D110 P400 and I was absolutely blown away with how good of a car it actually is. At the end of the day, many of us will likely use these vehicles as daily drivers and overland rigs, and NOT dedicated rock crawlers.

With all that out of the way, I'd still likely buy a new Defender over a new Bronco. Let me explain: The new Bronco First Edition is a 65k truck by the time you put it on 35's and slap on all the equipment necessary to bring it up to the same level of "spec" of a Launch Edition D110 - same applies for a Rubicon. Now, I've had the pleasure of driving a JL Rubicon, and I can confidently say that 90 mph on the highway will make you feel like Neil Armstrong re-entering the Earth's atmosphere. While I haven't driven a new Bronco, I can guarantee that a body-on-frame SUV on 35"s with removable doors and removable roof panels will likely be very similar in nature to a JL (Except that independent front suspension), and it will never rise to the level of refinement of a new Defender. I've driven a new Defender at similar highway speeds and it's a completely different experience; short of an L405, there's NOTHING that rides remotely close to a new Defender. Furthermore, at those speeds, it's still very possible to have a conversation at whisper-level while your family is a sleep in the second row. I don't care who you are or who you know...if you're asleep in the back seat of a JL Wrangler doing 90 MPH, then you must be capable of sleeping through natural disasters.

There's no denying that the new Bronco is a far more aesthetically pleasing re-design than the new Defender, and this new Bronco has made me realize just how many excuses I've been making for the new Defender in terms of looks (Sorry guys, it's true). There's also no doubt in my mind that the new Bronco will be more capable than a new D110, all things equal. However, I'm a human.....things are not binary. I can concede that as someone who uses their vehicles 98% of the time on pavement, I'd be willing to trade 5-10% extreme off road capability for a 100% improvement in on-road manners and day-to-day livability. Considering the negligible price difference in the upper tiers, I'd still pick a Defender. Now, time for LK8 to finish up that steel bumper so I can slap it on the front end of a Defender to hide that McGovern front clip.

 

[TexasTJ]

No one has brought this up but you can get the Broncos Sasquatch package on all the trim levels... That is super cool you can get a Striped Base with Lockers front and rear and 35" tires. That is something that to me is a vary smart ideal. You may never see one like that on the lot, but the option to order is it supper cool. It would be Nice if Jeep would give you that option and while I think LR technically dose how often will you see a Defender base on lot with the rear locker. I have been looking to see my LR3 for a Wrangler recently or maybe a 90 if they ever come to the states, but now the wife and i have agreed to wait until next fall (if Covid don't kill us all) and Get a two door Bronco Big Bend trim with that Sasquatch package.

As always though Drive what you love. If you don't you end up in my place and hate your car when ever you have to get into it.