New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Never seen a minivan that was designed for towing but its not least but uncommon for European SUV's to have 8klb tow rating.. pretty standard stuff, not the least bit uncommon, you'll have a harder time finding one with a low tow rating.. Domestic SUVs, you wont come close to that until your up to full size Burbans/Escalades.

My Diesel Audi Q7 weighs 5500lbs and its rated for a GWVR of 7000lbs, with 1500lb of payload capacity you can comfortably bump up a couple hundred pounds on the hitch if you increase support for WD, and keep vehicle under gross weight by a long shot if its not packed to the brim and overloaded too.. The platform is rated for 7700lbs of towing WITHOUT Weight Distribution.. an F150 is rated for 5000lbs of towing without WD, with WD its like 12,000lbs.. Already its better rated on the low end than the Truck, and European Vehicles never get a higher rating for with WD because they have never seen one of those contraptions in their life over there so they dont rate em at all.

Trucks are pretty much exclusively an american thing, and yet there's a whole world out there towing all sorts of stuff safely all over the place without 3/4 ton American trucks readily available.

As my existing trailer only weighs a mere 7000lbs gross, its way beyond any Jeep but comfortably within most Euro SUV's I dont really care about ability to pull a 30 foot glamper but the Defender sure looks sweet... Did I miss something or is offroading with a giant airstream not really possible regardless your truck, so who cares about those big land yachts when nobody's satisfied with this thing offroad, which is it now?
I'll add that tow ratings are driven by meeting emissions standards under load much more than they are by vehicle design. You can tow a 100 ton road train with a Land Rover Discovery or a 250,000lb 747 with a Volkswagen Touareg, or a 300,000lb Space Shuttle orbiter with a Toyota Tundra without the frame warping or things falling off. It's all about overcoming static coefficients of friction and then rolling friction - it doesn't take that much power or torque to do it, just an even application of force over time. Would you believe a 14-ton MRAP with a 5 ton load capacity only has 375hp?

The big-******** HD pickup trucks that Americans prefer are granted higher tow ratings mostly because they are placed in a different emissions class, that's it. Horsepower and torque are less important than one might think, and are tuned for driving dynamics, not the need to tow.
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
Ditch the Velar, D5, and several Jaguar models, keep the XJ, reposition the Defender as the LR5, acquire Ineos Grenadier and position as the new Defender and move power train investment to fuel cell EV as Ineos is a leading source of hydrogen technology/product and plans on using BMW engines that are aligned with JLR
No, keep the D5, ditch the Disovery Sport for the D90, with the D90 having an expanded range of options from basic $35K coil-sprung off-roader up to $100K+ G-Wagen Rodeo cruiser / music video prop.

Electrify Jaguar and collapse Range Rover sub-brand and Jaguar brand to the same electrified platforms - one Large variant and one Small variant. Abandon the J-Pace ultrapremium large SUV in favor of the FFRR. Ditch either the Evoque or the E-Pace (Evoque sells more, but the Jaguar is now an initial quality award winner). Generate emissions credits to support the continued production and sale of SV variants and Land Rover ICE powered all-terrain/off-roaders like the Discovery and the Defender.
 
What's funny is everyone is on the electric bandwagon due to the overwhelming torque that comes with electric and towing. Nikola and Tesla have been working on this for years and if it was so easy it would be done already. Sure, you can pull the planet out of orbit with a Model S if you wanted to, but cycle times will kill the motors and batteries beyond repair and that is the issue the big rig electric market is having to be full electric. Hybrid towing has been around for decades in locomotives; use the electric torque to get it up to speed and up the hill and the diesel generator down-tune to maintain efficient tow speed and power regeneration, slowing is done my regeneration braking and selectable by the engineer for on demand power as needed. Because the diesel generator is only running at cruise (essentially idle) there is almost zero emissions or drastic reductions; they can use the full gamete of power available if needed but the efficiency comes from the separation of elect and ICE for the most part which makes it GREEN.

Diamond Aircraft is partnered with Seimens and BMW for hybrid aircraft that are doing the exact same thing; electric engines suck power like crazy under heavy load so there has to be a balance for "effective" take-off and go-around power; once at cruise the lithiums are being repowered by the generator at cruise; almost zero fuel burn. The issue is conserving enough juice on takeoff to allow the aircraft to execute a return to home and enough power remaining for an emergency go-around in the event of a balked landing since there is not enough time for power regeneration from supplies used on the initial take-off; in this case the Diesel engine is not for aircraft power but essentially regeneration only. This concept is very much the same for the electric big rig industry; cruising around town is already figured out, going long distance while maintaining range after getting that big load up to speed without regeneration is the problem...........may or may not know someone in a key spot with Nikola military programs......:sneaky:

But hey, feelings matter, not science, stats, specs, or facts!
 
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JeepColorado

Well-known member
Out of all that crap I just read, I'll lead in on one thing. @JeepColorado show me one place or time when I called you a name outside of Troll or Trolling? if you do not like the stereotype of the online action, do not do it! If that offends you than I openly apologize for "name calling" especially after you wrote on 110 pages or so busting on anything you can think of for the Defender, the mindset of JLR owners, our class of people, who we are and so forth. Yet, overlooking all the facts that show the Defender out of the box on SPEC is more capable by SPEC than the Rubicon.........period and proven by OEM SPEC sheets I published a few pages back to include a few other OEMs! So if me calling you a troll is name calling than I apologize and it will never happen again and I hope you accept my apology as it truly is sincere; your actions however are unacceptable IMO and do not play victim for getting backlash for the things you said and the JLR community you have been so feverishly disrespecting.

On that note, you then follow saying you may buy one! If all the other things you said lead you to wanting to now buy one, then you do not even believe your logic is sane; or do you?

And then I will follow up with this notion that "we" Land Rover people feel JLR left us behind but I haven't seen anyone else say that except you! Why project that on us so many times only to hear us continually say that we do not believe that, are not saying it and again do not believe it. Do some maybe feel that, could be, but haven't see it here other than you and @EricTyrrell saying it so who is this "we" population you speak of?

Finally, I will ask that you speak of this amazing capability and when you are "older and want to stay on forest roads" you will buy a Defender but yet you have produced exactly one photo of you in your overly capable Rubicon (and it is capable) on exactly that........a forest road with 4 inches of snow on it; do you honestly need more or are you compensating somewhere in needs vs. wants in spec and ability?

And then you say we are busting on Jeeps and Tacos and everyone else, but then I go back no less than 20 pages and I do not see anyone busting on any vehicle outside of displaying factual deficiencies or SPECS published by the OEM or their users. Matter of fact, I can't find one person on here who openly says Jeep are garbage and you seem to think "we" have said that and are bashing Jeeps and that is clearly not factual by any sense. You on the other hand have dozens of posts hammering specifically on Defender; most of which are feelings and almost all of which are incorrect based on specs, facts, and science. On that note, many of these statements were made stating incorrect SPECS or differences in capabilities on a vehicle that was not even released yet, then when it was released and you were proven wrong, attempted to bash it on a completely bias video of rock crawling Defender with an inexperienced driver and it blew up in your face. Then you still blow past it and then brush off any SPEC sheet that shows clear contradiction of what you spit for knowledge as more or less capable.

My LR3 by SPEC to your 2019 or 2020, not sure what year yours is (nice Rubi, I mentioned that as I like Rubis) is less capable on paper in 2020 brand new production than my 2008 LR3...........FACT. That is not feelings, that is FACT by OEM released SPEC sheet; same goes for the Defender. Truth be told you are not the only one who has openly displayed how we want JLR reliability to come on par with our expectation; on that, we are hopeful and up until the other day you have been nothing but negative across the board. I do not care what anyone drives, I do care if someone comes into my world and degrades my every decision and love for a vehicle that has been nothing but epic for me and my lifestyle and blows the doors off safety in every way shape or form when it comes to family and friend safety of my passengers.......on or off-road, JLR has Jeep beat and not even close in fact or feelings in so many more ways that you can open up your field of view to see.

On that note, I said it no less than 5 times on this BS thread, I am actually in the market for a Gladiator at some point for some outside work I do; I am patiently waiting the potential for the diesel and the driveline package option I hope is going to be in it; that is my holding point as I think someone else mentioned here as well.

With that said, I know clearly what I am getting into if I buy a Jeep and I don't say that Jeep issues are "Jeep Spirit" when they are deficiencies; that is called denial. Jeep needs to fix some things that they have not gotten right for decades just as JLR needs to and is trying to. With that said, I would surely not spit pages of failures and hopes and dreams of a vehicle to follow up with "I might buy one now" cuz believe me my friend, that is not what you said and surely not how you portrayed yourself on here for the last 6 months or so..............what you say matters and how you portray yourself is character; only you are accountable for that just like what we said on here as individuals.

So again, I apologize for the name calling as you of a Troll, I will not digress in saying you are carrying out the act of trolling though.

So feelings matter, but facts, stats, and science does not................that is called TROLLING!


At the risk of being accused of beating a dead horse I'll summarize the facts one more time for @Victory_Overland-

- Stating that LR has less dealerships than Jeep is not an opinion- it's a fact

- Stating that comparably equipped Defenders are more expensive in their MSRP than a comparable Wrangler is not an opinion - it's a fact

- Stating that LR scores more poorly than the Wrangler does on mainstream accepted quality and customer satisfaction surveys is not an opinion - it's a fact

Each of these things are independently verifiable and quantifiable and everyone of them is a very reasonable reason to hesitate to buy a LR

Some things that are very reasonable conclusions based on facts-

- Simplicity is one of the key principles when picking a vehicle to overland with (largely agreed upon guiding principle)- an electronically controlled, multi-stage air bag is more complicated than a metal axle and a spring (fact) - the Jeep makes a better overland vehicle in this regard (Opinion)

- Modification drives enthusiast excitement (very reasonable opinion about the auto-loving world)- Modern LRs have received very little, if any, aftermarket support relative to something like the Jeep or a Toyota 4Runner (fact)- I will have much more choice and personalization options thereby enhancing my joy if I buy the Jeep (opinion)

Would I ever buy a LR Defender?

Yes!- with some caveats
- I'd have to be more interested in running gravel roads than I am in the places I do now- I like having a little reserve capability and consider it be a part of good planning like carrying a little more water or gas or medical supplies than you think you may need so I prefer the Jeep for where I go
- LR or the aftermarket will have to fix that front end! ...hideous
- The aftermarket responds robustly- I'm fond of ARB- I'd love to see a modern take on their deluxe sahara bar on the front and some storage drawers in the back
- RELIABILITY- let's see them prove it over time. Right now, it's not looking good- the Jeep is improving- #11 on the JD Power, 21 spots ahead of LR who is stagnate despite all of their work in this regard everyone claims they are making
- I'd have to see a compelling reason to pay more $ for it- I've compared an LR4 to a Grand Cherokee for my wife and a Discovery 5 to a Wrangler for me and so far I've just not seen the value. I don't need to buy the most expensive thing to feel I'm getting the best, I like getting value for my money. If the Defender can present a compelling case to spend more; so far it hasn't measure up, but it could.
 

Paddler Ed

Adventurer
Jaguar is screwed - they lost their big car market to the RR and others of that class some time ago. However, they also have a dying market (literally) as how many 40 year olds do you know want to buy one? I can think of 70 year olds, and some in their 60s, but younger? Not that many....

Land Rover have the problem with the parallel sub-brands (Land Rover and Range Rover) in that unlike Toyota & Lexus, they have managed to set them up to compete with one another because the LR & RR market are brand and image focused - in contrast, a Toyota buyer generally wants an appliance, a Lexus buyer wants the tech and comfort (NVH) associated with Lexus.

So, as a result of that they have (between LR and RR):
Range Rover: Nothing really to compete with apart from the RR Velar
Range Rover Sport: Competes with the RR Velar and Disco 5 (7 seat option), possibly the D110
RR Velar: Competes with the RR and RRS
RR Ewok: competes with Disco Sport

Land Rover:
Disco 5 competes with Defender 110 now
Defender 110 competes with RRS and D5 to an extent
Disco Sport competes with Ewok

Jaguar... well here is a Byzantine mess....
XJ: Range Rover
XF: RRS & RRV
XE: Disco Sport & RRE
E-Pace: Disco Sport & RRE
F-Pace: RRS & RRV & JXF

What they can't get rid of are the Disco Sport or the Range Rover Ewok; they need something in that premium RAV4 market, which is where that sits, and that size is too important in Europe.

Personally, I'd kill the RR Sport and RR Velar, leaving an aspirational Range Rover model (RR Ewok) and the full fat one (Range Rover), that then leaves Land Rover with a bit of reshuffling to do in their range, which is easier if they re-do the Disco5 next (I think it's about due).

For Jaguar, it then means you don't need to kill of their range, and instead you have a coherent range to an extent. The E-Pace and F-Pace top and tail that market nicely, the XE/XF/XJ range make sense again (if they bring in the ugly I-Pace's technology) as a decent set of performance Grand Tourers to rival BMW 3/5/7 series.

That then leave Jaguar with 5 models and Land Rover with 5 (2x RR and 3x LR), which is a much more manageable product line without competing too much with one another. Requires getting rid of 3 product lines.
 

JeepColorado

Well-known member
What the Defender should have been- How can any of you look at this thing and not think this should have been the Defender!


"the Grenadier is clearly not intended to be co-opted by soccer moms, like all the Rovers and G-Wagens out there. There will be no coddling in the ranks of the Grenadiers. It's designed to be simple, durable and stripped down, capable of thriving in the harshest corners of the planet"

The Defender that LR couldn't figure out how to design and build.
 

Carson G

Well-known member
The only things I don’t like about it are the twin sets of alpine windows and the grille fog lights and the fact it’s not a LR. If this comes to the US like they say it is and if it’s priced well it could steer me a away from a Defender or Gladiator. That is if I don’t build a new OG Defender from new parts before then.
 

Carson G

Well-known member
It’s like two of my favorite vehicles had a baby (OG Defender and 461 Gwagon). On the flip side the New Defender is the same way for me it’s a combination of two of my favorites as well (OG Defender and LR4).
 

JeepColorado

Well-known member

This is how the designer of a 4x4 should talk- not about esoteric design principles that really only resonate with some smug instagram crowd in Los Angeles and London. "No clever hiding of pillars" just a straightforward design- you wonder if that's a shot at the floating pillar BS on the Defender?
 

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