Who ordered a New Defender ?

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Utah KJ

Free State of Florida
I have a 2007 WK CRD, and a 1997 4Runner. When I bought the 4Runner, I was working for a dealership in SLC. I had all the sales guys on notice that if anyone took a 4x4 in trade, to let me know immediately. I got a call from the KIA store one day letting me know they just took in a 1997 Discovery... "now before you say anything.... it only has 67K miles on it", sales guy said. I had never considered a LR product, but a low mileage rig may be worth looking at. I went down there, body looked fine, anything that broke off the vehicle was in a box in the trunk, so it was all complete. I drove it, it went down the road straight and freeway speeds. I did notice that it would not shift into 4lo, but I read that the cables can get rusty without use. I was ready to take the chance and buy, but after researching the VIN, the vehicle had many more miles than the ODO displayed, so I passed. The 4Runner came to the KIA store two weeks later, and I bought it.

This Defender is the first Land Rover product that speaks to me, and one that I am really am considering. Independent suspension all around, and lack of a diesel engine in the states have given me pause. But, I am willing to see what enthusiast think about their offroad experiences with this vehicle. The Land Rover dealership by my house in Ft Lauderdale is very fancy, I look forward to having a legitimate excuse to go inside.
 

Blaise

Well-known member
^ As it's been stated for a few hundred pages now (there was another thread haha), the independent suspension is actually amazing on modern rovers. 10" of front travel and 13" of rear travel makes for a good time, and adjustable height is something I can't go back from.
 

JeepColorado

Well-known member
I'm going to try and extend the olive branch here...I've replied to you in various threads disagreeing with your take on modern LR products, and on the vast majority of those threads you've failed to respond to me. So, I have to ask...have you driven anything built by Land Rover in the past decade or so? Have you driven these vehicles both on and off road? I'm genuinely curious, because I too was once in your camp. For a while I genuinely believed that the old D1/D2s were the ultimate LRs and the LR3/4/D5 were garbage...that is until I drove one. These modern machines are incredibly capable and can be easily modified. I really don't understand, so perhaps you can explain why you're so anti-modern LR.


Not trying to speak on RedRover's behalf, but I stay pretty involved on a variety of forums and see a wide-ranging set of opinions on vehicles. Furthermore, I've spent the last 2 years in particular reading, test-driving, talking with people who own various vehicles trying to decide which one to buy. I've waited to purchase until LR came out with the Defender because I have been genuinely interested. Since you asked I think the below are the main reasons I see for why people don't care for modern LR.

1) Unreliable- No car company is immune from gremlins and issues in such a complex product, but LR seems particularly likely to catch these problems. An enthusiast like myself recognizes that part of that is probably from the fact that they are pushing technology and that will always lead to some quirkiness. I can respect that, but I'd love to see them go a touch slower in their product development, work out the kinks, and then bring it to market. Sure, develop something that's cutting edge, but take the time to get it right before you bring it out. You don't have to go as slow as Toyota, but their history of unreliability is pretty unmatched in any company that hasn't already gone out of business.


*Some Quotes- "Wore out it's welcome", "hotbed of frustration and unreliability", "We can just imagine how many days out of use the Velar would've logged had we asked the service techs to chase down every intermittent warning light, electronic glitch, and powertrain hiccup that seemingly came and went at random throughout most of its time with us."

Yes, the Velar is not the Defender, but it is a very recently developed Modern Land Rover and you have to wonder how much the culture of the organization that created this has really changed in creating the Defender.

2) Expensive- these problems are only exacerbated by the fact that it costs so much money. LR keeps bragging about the $49K US price tag, but there will be few people who order that and you won't be able to find one of those on a lot. My guess is that the avg Defender will sell closer to $75K. That's crazy money for most people, maybe even more so for the kind of people who'd ever actually take it off-road. For reference, you can buy a 2 yr old Pre-Owned Certified Land Cruiser for around $60K, get a V8 and shed the reliability concerns forever. You could buy a 2020 Jeep Rubicon for low $50s, put on an ARB Bumper, LED Lights, Rear Cargo Box, Air Compressor and Warn Winch and still have $10K left over to take a trip.

3) They've mostly abandoned the Off-Road Community- Form follows Function- meaning- you can discover the intent (function) of a particular thing by looking at it's form. Looking at a modern LR it doesn't take long to conclude that they don't really care about off-roading. They are not easily modifiable- not really. Sure there's Johnson Rods and Lucky 8- all great vendors and I appreciate what they are trying to do. However, look at the rim sizes LR chooses, the size of the brakes they use, the placement of radiators, the lack of even modest off-road worthy articulation, (forget about even light rock-crawler articulation)- they are not really building a vehicle meant for off-road use. They are building something that is meant to give a passing glance at it's off-road heritage mostly for marketing purposes and perhaps the occasional wet gravel road. That kind of style over substance is not cool to most of the off-road community.

I was really interested in this vehicle- enough to wait 2 years before I purchased so I could see the Defender come out. It's better than what they've done in the past from appearances, but with how complex they've made it I wouldn't touch one for the next 3-5 years until they prove it's not a $75K ticket to the service department.
 

REDROVER

Explorer
I have driven lr3 for a few months and 2013 Range Rover,
I like them, and I never said they are bad vehicles, they are complex and not as reliable but great.
That being said
we don’t like or appreciate ass kissers, at least on USA we don’t.
Someone who keeps advertising and trying to hide flaws.
Anyone who says anything bad or points out anything about the defender, you guys tag as a troll or whatever else.
Get over it, it’s just another modern vehicle, in 5 years it will be worthless,


So back to the tread ;)
 

soflorovers

Well-known member
Not trying to speak on RedRover's behalf, but I stay pretty involved on a variety of forums and see a wide-ranging set of opinions on vehicles. Furthermore, I've spent the last 2 years in particular reading, test-driving, talking with people who own various vehicles trying to decide which one to buy. I've waited to purchase until LR came out with the Defender because I have been genuinely interested. Since you asked I think the below are the main reasons I see for why people don't care for modern LR.

1) Unreliable- No car company is immune from gremlins and issues in such a complex product, but LR seems particularly likely to catch these problems. An enthusiast like myself recognizes that part of that is probably from the fact that they are pushing technology and that will always lead to some quirkiness. I can respect that, but I'd love to see them go a touch slower in their product development, work out the kinks, and then bring it to market. Sure, develop something that's cutting edge, but take the time to get it right before you bring it out. You don't have to go as slow as Toyota, but their history of unreliability is pretty unmatched in any company that hasn't already gone out of business.


*Some Quotes- "Wore out it's welcome", "hotbed of frustration and unreliability", "We can just imagine how many days out of use the Velar would've logged had we asked the service techs to chase down every intermittent warning light, electronic glitch, and powertrain hiccup that seemingly came and went at random throughout most of its time with us."

Yes, the Velar is not the Defender, but it is a very recently developed Modern Land Rover and you have to wonder how much the culture of the organization that created this has really changed in creating the Defender.

2) Expensive- these problems are only exacerbated by the fact that it costs so much money. LR keeps bragging about the $49K US price tag, but there will be few people who order that and you won't be able to find one of those on a lot. My guess is that the avg Defender will sell closer to $75K. That's crazy money for most people, maybe even more so for the kind of people who'd ever actually take it off-road. For reference, you can buy a 2 yr old Pre-Owned Certified Land Cruiser for around $60K, get a V8 and shed the reliability concerns forever. You could buy a 2020 Jeep Rubicon for low $50s, put on an ARB Bumper, LED Lights, Rear Cargo Box, Air Compressor and Warn Winch and still have $10K left over to take a trip.

3) They've mostly abandoned the Off-Road Community- Form follows Function- meaning- you can discover the intent (function) of a particular thing by looking at it's form. Looking at a modern LR it doesn't take long to conclude that they don't really care about off-roading. They are not easily modifiable- not really. Sure there's Johnson Rods and Lucky 8- all great vendors and I appreciate what they are trying to do. However, look at the rim sizes LR chooses, the size of the brakes they use, the placement of radiators, the lack of even modest off-road worthy articulation, (forget about even light rock-crawler articulation)- they are not really building a vehicle meant for off-road use. They are building something that is meant to give a passing glance at it's off-road heritage mostly for marketing purposes and perhaps the occasional wet gravel road. That kind of style over substance is not cool to most of the off-road community.

I was really interested in this vehicle- enough to wait 2 years before I purchased so I could see the Defender come out. It's better than what they've done in the past from appearances, but with how complex they've made it I wouldn't touch one for the next 3-5 years until they prove it's not a $75K ticket to the service department.
1) Well put. That said, I believe the stigma associated with Land Rover is mainly due to the reputation earned by the brand in the 90's and early 00's. Unfortunately, modern LR products from 2017 onward seem to have their electrical gremlins associated with the infotainment system and related components. I cannot defend those products and LR should improve the quality on those products.

2) I don't really consider this a fair comparison. If you're going to talk about a used Toyota then you need to use a used LR as your measuring point. I just picked up an LR3 with 171k on the odometer (probably closer to 200k because of the tires). I'd argue that an LR is as reliable as you're willing to make it. Can you ignore an LR like you can a Toyota? However, you did point out that even Toyota has their issues.

3) To an extent you're correct. I believe LR realized that they were straying far from the mark and have gone to great lengths to try and correct these shortcomings. The RRS, RR, D5 and Defender can all be had with a center and rear locking diff. LR did the Great Divide with the L405, a South American expedition with the D5 and RRS, and finally revived the TReK competitions for the D5. I think it's fair to say that they're trying to rectify these things. Yes, brakes have gotten larger and cooling is stuffed into the bumpers, but that doesn't mean that Land Rovers aren't capable off road. 20" is the new 18" wheel; frankly it's not that big of a deal when you realize there are plenty of AT/MT tires available in those sizes. The new D5 may not look spectacular, but there's no denying that a D5 on a Duratrac is as capable as a Gladiator Rubicon (not gonna compare it to a Wrangler because that's closer in size to the new Defender). As for your rock crawling comment, my LR3 on 35" and stock air suspension would like a word...
1572028606221.png
 

soflorovers

Well-known member
I have driven lr3 for a few months and 2013 Range Rover,
I like them, and I never said they are bad vehicles, they are complex and not as reliable but great.
That being said
we don’t like or appreciate ass kissers, at least on USA we don’t.
Someone who keeps advertising and trying to hide flaws.
Anyone who says anything bad or points out anything about the defender, you guys tag as a troll or whatever else.
Get over it, it’s just another modern vehicle, in 5 years it will be worthless,


So back to the tread ;)
I appreciate the response. I'd argue that a modern LR, despite all the electrical gremlins that we've seen in 2017+ trucks are still infinitely more reliable than anything built by LR prior to 2004. I've had over 10+ D1/D2's in my family since 1996 and I can tell you that they were worse back when they were new than any modern LR. I'm not hiding flaws, but I believe you're misinformed. I'm not calling you a troll per-se, but I believe that you've written the new Defender off just because it's "new". The reality is that the new Defender is going to come with dual lockers, can fit a 35" with minor modifications, and will be infinitely better than any older Rover for pavement driving. See my above post; I'd wager that my LR3, which you'd consider "modern" (and bears a much closer resemblance both technologically and aesthetically to the new Defender than the old Defender) will handily out perform an old NAS Spec Defender or RRC with equivalent sized tires, and you know how capable a Defender or RRC on 35" can be.
 

JeepColorado

Well-known member
1) Well put. That said, I believe the stigma associated with Land Rover is mainly due to the reputation earned by the brand in the 90's and early 00's. Unfortunately, modern LR products from 2017 onward seem to have their electrical gremlins associated with the infotainment system and related components. I cannot defend those products and LR should improve the quality on those products.

2) I don't really consider this a fair comparison. If you're going to talk about a used Toyota then you need to use a used LR as your measuring point. I just picked up an LR3 with 171k on the odometer (probably closer to 200k because of the tires). I'd argue that an LR is as reliable as you're willing to make it. Can you ignore an LR like you can a Toyota? However, you did point out that even Toyota has their issues.

3) To an extent you're correct. I believe LR realized that they were straying far from the mark and have gone to great lengths to try and correct these shortcomings. The RRS, RR, D5 and Defender can all be had with a center and rear locking diff. LR did the Great Divide with the L405, a South American expedition with the D5 and RRS, and finally revived the TReK competitions for the D5. I think it's fair to say that they're trying to rectify these things. Yes, brakes have gotten larger and cooling is stuffed into the bumpers, but that doesn't mean that Land Rovers aren't capable off road. 20" is the new 18" wheel; frankly it's not that big of a deal when you realize there are plenty of AT/MT tires available in those sizes. The new D5 may not look spectacular, but there's no denying that a D5 on a Duratrac is as capable as a Gladiator Rubicon (not gonna compare it to a Wrangler because that's closer in size to the new Defender). As for your rock crawling comment, my LR3 on 35" and stock air suspension would like a word...
View attachment 546712


Great example of a worthwhile conversation between 2 people who have some common interests, but maybe don't totally agree on everything...it is possible after all! :)

I think it's awesome that LR is doing the Treks..I hope they knock it out of the park. the D5s from Lucky 8 look incredible and I can't wait to see the Defenders do it.

...and I love that picture- looks like a great set up.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
1) Well put. That said, I believe the stigma associated with Land Rover is mainly due to the reputation earned by the brand in the 90's and early 00's. ...........

Agree with some caveat's. The 'stigma' dates from the British Leyland days, when Britain nationalised their auto industry. Socialism always fails, as did BL. After much restructuring it became Rover Group under British Aerospace, later acquired by BMW in 2000. BMW broke up Rover Group and sold LR to Ford in 2006. BMW left the relationship with some less than optimal relations with LR. Ford invested heavily and did improve quality. Ford eventually sold Jaguar Land Rover to Tata Motors in 2008. Tata also heavily invested in engineering and manufacturing. My point is that JLR has gone from a successful private entity to socialism to 5 subsequent owning entities. While engineering, manufacturing and quality have improved it has taken some time and left some 'warts'. It's amazing they are still around which speaks to their product and market they have carved out over the decades. Remember MG, Austin Healey, Sunbeam, Triumph, ..............? The British car industry has been in turmoil since WWII.

Today the entire automotive industry could be characterized as 'in turmoil' as the transitioned to the next generation of technology is researched, productized, tested and proven. But we are not going back to Hummers (hell, they don't even fit on 4WD trails) or older technology, period. Today's technology is better and will continue to improve. Just like today's phone's that went from flip to smart to fold. Deal with it! But do continue to ********** because manufacturers do listen and are struggling with the tension between customers and regulators. Now about Gerry McGovern's Russian Doll styling ..................
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
I also think 'infotainment' arguments are a lost cause immediately upon productization? Why? Because the timeline to being in the hands of the customer says it is already obsolete or at a minimum old. It is the curse of high tech, software and long vehicle development cycles.
 
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blackangie

Well-known member
^ As it's been stated for a few hundred pages now (there was another thread haha), the independent suspension is actually amazing on modern rovers. 10" of front travel and 13" of rear travel makes for a good time, and adjustable height is something I can't go back from.
Is new def more travel?
b37e66cbab06bb10ff0968e088557d0e.jpg
429722b342e7c007781144241ce491ac.jpg
a69fc755fa27f7f5860a0a4e13146b39.jpg


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blackangie

Well-known member
I have driven lr3 for a few months and 2013 Range Rover,
I like them, and I never said they are bad vehicles, they are complex and not as reliable but great.
That being said
we don’t like or appreciate ass kissers, at least on USA we don’t.
Someone who keeps advertising and trying to hide flaws.
Anyone who says anything bad or points out anything about the defender, you guys tag as a troll or whatever else.
Get over it, it’s just another modern vehicle, in 5 years it will be worthless,


So back to the tread ;)
have to ask, Not as reliable as what specifically? And please privide facts you have to show that?

2013 is not really latest gen to be fair would you not agree.

I test drove s D5 the other day, off-road and onroad. Incredible stuff, great build quality.

If ya guna have such strong opinions please to be fair maybe drive something newer than 2013, both on and offroad then come back and talk to us with genuine experience & opinions.

Plenty of members on the other AU forum have great success here in AU driving new EAS discos, RRs all over the outback.

I will be doing the same in the new defender. Long distance touring 4x4.


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REDROVER

Explorer
Blackangie
you know why me and some of the guys like me argue here ? Because we like the Land Rover.
I said before, my friends lr4 has been the most reliable and capable truck among 10 other trucks we take out to play, 230.000 miles and counting,
but at the same time that’s not a case with every rover.
I really hope the new defender kicks ass,
And changes ppls opinion about land Rovers.

as far as the facts you are asking about, I am comparing it to land cruiser.

Going back to the tread,

There is noting wrong about have gasoline powered defender, modem small Diesel engines are not any more reliable,
The old waterproof simple diesel is long gone,

I am sorry if I offended you in my previous posts.
I guess we all get worked up sometimes.
 
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