Todd n Natalie
OverCamper
Agreed. I don't think it's a bad vehicle. Just not a Defender....
Can you imagine the uproar it the next Wrangler switched to a unibody, IFS/IRS Suv with a non removable roof? To me that's what Land Rover did here.
2020 Defender Spy Shots....
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Can you imagine the uproar it the next Wrangler switched to a unibody, IFS/IRS Suv with a non removable roof? To me that's what Land Rover did here.
Twistnshout
Member
Yeah I'm sure it will be great but for the REAL enthusiast....they just got ditched.
And your right. The uproar with that kind of departure would be incalculable. Jeep did it smart, increased market share by putting in cute-c stuff women would like while retaining the capability/utility/personalization of the rig.
Granted most jeeps dont see any action or if they do dont come close to their capability. But most likely dont care, they buy because it DOES have that capability and that is the charm regardless of how they use it. No different then buying a super car capable of doing 200+ mph. Most wont come close to those speeds or testing the handling limits. It's what it can do that what gets people to buy them.
I'm sure this new defender (I want to call it surrender lol ) will be a better overlander than a jeep given it's payloads and wow factor power plants. But that air suspension doesnt have a great track record for dependability from all I've read. Thinking that would have to be addressed.
Hoping I'm wrong on all my thoughts. I'd love to see it break out and kick all comers.
Blaise
Well-known member
Where are you reading all this about the air suspension being so horrible? Because the actual owners of theses trucks have been commenting over and over right here in this thread about how robust they've been.
My truck is 14 years old and so far the only service it's had is a replacement of some O-rings in the front valve block. It's also ridiculously comfortable and having had a traditional lifted rig before it's amazing to be able to operate at both street and off-road height with the push of a button.
Last week in SWCO I passed *so* many jeeps along poor condition roads just because they couldn't go much above 10mph in comfort while we were doing 15-20. Obviously in a super technical scenario we'd be worse off but most roads are roads, not obstacles...
If you haven't tried it, please don't knock it. I'm a big fan of both the wrangler and the rover (and Toyota if they ever release a new truck) but they've all got different targets for performance. All are excellent, just a matter of which you prefer. And again, telling you, fully independent + air is a very comfortable way to live, especially if you've got your lady with you and are doing thousands and thousands of miles...
My truck is 14 years old and so far the only service it's had is a replacement of some O-rings in the front valve block. It's also ridiculously comfortable and having had a traditional lifted rig before it's amazing to be able to operate at both street and off-road height with the push of a button.
Last week in SWCO I passed *so* many jeeps along poor condition roads just because they couldn't go much above 10mph in comfort while we were doing 15-20. Obviously in a super technical scenario we'd be worse off but most roads are roads, not obstacles...
If you haven't tried it, please don't knock it. I'm a big fan of both the wrangler and the rover (and Toyota if they ever release a new truck) but they've all got different targets for performance. All are excellent, just a matter of which you prefer. And again, telling you, fully independent + air is a very comfortable way to live, especially if you've got your lady with you and are doing thousands and thousands of miles...
Todd n Natalie
OverCamper
My thoughts as well.
calicamper
Expedition Leader
I’d wait for the Bronco. If Ford was just social engineering distractions with the patents for removable doors then at least it will probably be cheaper, with 10spd and probably gobs of power. Lol
Plus after our big 6 NP trip through remote sections of AZ, Utah North side of the Grand Canyon I decided either Toyota or Domestic would be best if you break down out there.
Rover,Mercedes, Porsche even Hyundai you might end up getting flatbed ride all the way to Salt Lake which would seriously suck and ruin a trip planned for quite some time.
dreadlocks
Well-known member
Air Suspension is the tits, my current vehicle has it.. and it has absolutely RUINED me.. I have to have it on my next vehicle, going without it would be a regression in features... its been totally reliable, never given me any grief in 5 years.. its like I have 3 vehicles in one, drop it to the ground and I can tear up some mountain roads.. handles much like a car, even with big all terrains on it.. counteracts body roll dynamically and makes a big difference.. Hook a trailer up to it, tow it perfectly level in mid setting for most comfort... then find a nice trail, crank the bags up to max height and I've got more ground clearance than a stock Jeep.. then use the onboard compressor to air back up when I'm done.
If bags are for bitches, then hello.. I'm a super **********.
If bags are for bitches, then hello.. I'm a super **********.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
@Blaise and @dreadlocks — I have an honest, good-faith question for you as Rover/Air Suspension users. I’ve seen the refrain we see in this thread — that it’s crap due to air suspension — often repeated about Rovers and other rigs, and yet I see them regularly going on trips that would make Magellan jealous. These criticisms are largely aimed at the complexity of these systems as compared to traditional coils, but complex doesn’t necessarily mean unreliable. Obviously, the system works well enough for the dozens of folks who use it every day, despite having it’s detractors.
What are typical ‘real world’ failures in your experience, and what is the main concern? I have opinions based on lots of reading, countless hours of studying, etc. And I know the prevailing wisdom is coils/leafs over bags — but I have very limited real world experience with air suspension, so I think for everyone’s benefit it would be good to hear from people who run the systems.
I can see two areas of failure with airbags — am I missing any? And what is the impact of these failures in a typical situation?
1) Punctured Airbag — seems like a prepared person could bring a spare, in much the same way non-air rigs will often bring a spare shock? I’ve also seen a lot of airbags inside coil springs, and they are meant to ‘help’ — if they pop, the spring is still there, it just means a bit of poor suspension performance but probably not a trip ending disaster, right?
2) Electrical/Component Failure — this one I guess depends on the system and the failure, but what’s the scope of the problem in a ‘real world’ situation? Stuck in the bush? Drive it out gingerly? Craft a helicopter out of chewing gum, a jaw bone, and a positive attitude to haul the rig out? What’s the solutions to this problem, if it arises?
I work under the assumption that all vehicles — even Landcruisers
— have the potential to fail. The real question is what that failure means — if a failure means a life-and-death, stranded in the back of beyond situation, then that might be a deal breaker. But if a failure can be repaired reasonably easily, or simply means a bit more of a bumpy ride, or a largely optional feature is offline for a bit, that’s less of a concern.
What are typical ‘real world’ failures in your experience, and what is the main concern? I have opinions based on lots of reading, countless hours of studying, etc. And I know the prevailing wisdom is coils/leafs over bags — but I have very limited real world experience with air suspension, so I think for everyone’s benefit it would be good to hear from people who run the systems.
I can see two areas of failure with airbags — am I missing any? And what is the impact of these failures in a typical situation?
1) Punctured Airbag — seems like a prepared person could bring a spare, in much the same way non-air rigs will often bring a spare shock? I’ve also seen a lot of airbags inside coil springs, and they are meant to ‘help’ — if they pop, the spring is still there, it just means a bit of poor suspension performance but probably not a trip ending disaster, right?
2) Electrical/Component Failure — this one I guess depends on the system and the failure, but what’s the scope of the problem in a ‘real world’ situation? Stuck in the bush? Drive it out gingerly? Craft a helicopter out of chewing gum, a jaw bone, and a positive attitude to haul the rig out? What’s the solutions to this problem, if it arises?
I work under the assumption that all vehicles — even Landcruisers
— have the potential to fail. The real question is what that failure means — if a failure means a life-and-death, stranded in the back of beyond situation, then that might be a deal breaker. But if a failure can be repaired reasonably easily, or simply means a bit more of a bumpy ride, or a largely optional feature is offline for a bit, that’s less of a concern.
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Blaise
Well-known member
The primary issue for EAS is lack of PM.
On the LR3/4, the truck will auto level every 20 minutes once it's shut off. If you have a leak (in the bag, blocks, lines, etc), the truck will lower on one corner, then level. Then lower again, then level. Pretty soon you're on the bump stops.
If you don't address these concerns, your compressor will be running all the time, which can lead to a failure due to overheating, especially when at offroad height when more air is needed to keep the bags full. If you run a stupid set of johnson rods, this will be accelerated as you'll be over-height the whole time with the compressor running nonstop.
The 2nd issue is that many people ignore the fitment of oversize tires with EAS. I run a 265/65/18 tire, which I've verified to clear at full lock even with the bags complete deflated. If you run a larger tire, you could see an EAS failure and not even be able to get moving on flat ground.
Paranoid (prepared?) people will also add a valve to the top of the airbags to be able to air them up with a standard compressor. This could help you in the event of a compressor failure on the trail.
On the LR3/4, the truck will auto level every 20 minutes once it's shut off. If you have a leak (in the bag, blocks, lines, etc), the truck will lower on one corner, then level. Then lower again, then level. Pretty soon you're on the bump stops.
If you don't address these concerns, your compressor will be running all the time, which can lead to a failure due to overheating, especially when at offroad height when more air is needed to keep the bags full. If you run a stupid set of johnson rods, this will be accelerated as you'll be over-height the whole time with the compressor running nonstop.
The 2nd issue is that many people ignore the fitment of oversize tires with EAS. I run a 265/65/18 tire, which I've verified to clear at full lock even with the bags complete deflated. If you run a larger tire, you could see an EAS failure and not even be able to get moving on flat ground.
Paranoid (prepared?) people will also add a valve to the top of the airbags to be able to air them up with a standard compressor. This could help you in the event of a compressor failure on the trail.
dreadlocks
Well-known member
Air Suspension has a bad wrap because it was problematic early on when introduced into production vehicles, but most of the lessons have been learned the hard way and long ago resolved with today's air suspension systems.. for example the infamous Audi Allroad was one of the first, and always had problems.. mostly because if it sprung a leak, it'd run the compressor at full duty cycle, which its not rated for.. and burn it up.. now you have a leak and need a new pump.. However on mine, its got time out timer and thermal monitoring on the air compressor.. it wont run the pump until it fails anymore.. Other issues were with corrosion and stuff, air fittings w/poor metallurgy that would corrode and then snap, requiring a whole new strut (expensive).. the check valves now on the struts are really easy to service, wont weld them selves to the strut.. are cheap and easy to replace if one gets stuck.. most of the problems with air suspension were not with struts themselves, but with check valves, distribution blocks, air hoses.. and after a couple of decades the engineers have worked out most of the longterm issues with that "complexity"..
The only issues I really hear of anymore are intermittent stuck valves, and usually only in really cold temps.. indicating there is some moisture in the line and the valves are freezing shut.. I live in a really dry climate so I've never had that issue.
The only issues I really hear of anymore are intermittent stuck valves, and usually only in really cold temps.. indicating there is some moisture in the line and the valves are freezing shut.. I live in a really dry climate so I've never had that issue.
TexasTJ
Climbing Nerd
Really it ruined you!!! Really??? I have two Discovery 3's one with 162k and Coils, the other with 126K and Air. I drive both regularly and can hardly tell a difference in ride. I think you are maybe more ruined by Suspension Geometry.
as for the reliability I upgraded the compresses on both truck, but when my wife's Lost 2 airbag I put Coils on the truck . the reality is if you get Air suspension use it and when it is worn out replace it or don't. If you maintain the Truck properly it should not be a problem.
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catmann
Active member
Good article/reviews on the new Defender from LR insiders - also check out the archival video of the Solihull factory opening day (near the bottom of the article) with people bouncing all over the place in Land Rovers - good fun!
www.coventrytelegraph.net
The new Land Rover Defender: What the experts think
Our panel of experts offer their verdict on the new version of an icon
www.coventrytelegraph.net
dreadlocks
Well-known member
@TexasTJ Do you tow? whats the height difference on lowest and highest? on my vehicle its dramatic.. I'd much rather drive the highways and at speed w/a low center of gravity, than drive around lifted everywhere just for the few occasions I need actually need such clearance.
Yeah, I'm ruined.. Ive got an awd diesel w/8spd aisn, air suspension, fully loaded with every option.. I can outrun sports cars in the mountains, out tow most SUV's my size through the mountains for days on end w/ease and comfort, and can explore >90% of the trails/forest/mining roads here in Colorado without stress.. I'm completely smitten w/my current rig.. however, if I could get a new Defender in a Diesel.. Id already be making plans to get one after I'm done w/this.
Ive driven overladen lifted wranglers across the country, and screw that nonsense, I'm not the cheap masochist I used to be.. comfort and luxury are not bad things when your spending weeks in the pilot's seat.
Yeah, I'm ruined.. Ive got an awd diesel w/8spd aisn, air suspension, fully loaded with every option.. I can outrun sports cars in the mountains, out tow most SUV's my size through the mountains for days on end w/ease and comfort, and can explore >90% of the trails/forest/mining roads here in Colorado without stress.. I'm completely smitten w/my current rig.. however, if I could get a new Defender in a Diesel.. Id already be making plans to get one after I'm done w/this.
Ive driven overladen lifted wranglers across the country, and screw that nonsense, I'm not the cheap masochist I used to be.. comfort and luxury are not bad things when your spending weeks in the pilot's seat.
TexasTJ
Climbing Nerd
I have access to a 3/4 truck when I really need to tow. But I have pulled our camper with a load of camping gear for a month of exploring and climbing with no problem with both setup. I’ve also done it in a wrangler Tj with a long arm kit and a JK unlimited and was not really bothered by it. Once I drove a Defender solo from Maine to Texas too. Sure the Disco is more comfortable, but not by a ton. I feel seats are the bigger problem for me since I broke my back in 2016. I find the LR3s seat hard to set in long Drives Coil or air, so I had to replace my drivers seat.
dreadlocks
Well-known member
A TJ or JK dont have half the towing capabilities I currently require (~8klbs 20ft toy hauler).. and a truck wont carry a family of 4 + two dogs comfortably either.
I dunno bout the LR3 seats, but my Audi seats are the best Ive had.. Ive got a messed up back (not broken but ruptured disks), but with infinite ways to adjust it, the steering wheel and foot pedals made it real easy for me to find a position I can sit in all day long w/out any wear and tear on my body, then save it for future use.. I can now drive day on end w/almost no ill effects, whereas in the 5spd TJ I needed a day of recovery every other day, and I was much younger.. I had maybe 2 adjustments w/that seat.
I dunno bout the LR3 seats, but my Audi seats are the best Ive had.. Ive got a messed up back (not broken but ruptured disks), but with infinite ways to adjust it, the steering wheel and foot pedals made it real easy for me to find a position I can sit in all day long w/out any wear and tear on my body, then save it for future use.. I can now drive day on end w/almost no ill effects, whereas in the 5spd TJ I needed a day of recovery every other day, and I was much younger.. I had maybe 2 adjustments w/that seat.
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