1973 Wagoneer - Full Size Camping Goodness

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
He who laughs last, gets better performance.

Because it's a female. Your Wagoneer reserves the right to change her mind without any written, implied or expressed consent. :elkgrin:

But seriously, what does Tony think?
I'd continue to work with him. I don't see anything wrong with the strategy you guys are pursuing. If I did, I'd jump in.

In the mean time, drive the waggy and enjoy. If she hic-ups now and then while you're sorting things out, just remind her you will get the last laugh. :victory:
 

Dr. Marneaus

Station Wagoneer
Because it's a female. Your Wagoneer reserves the right to change her mind without any written, implied or expressed consent. :elkgrin:

But seriously, what does Tony think?
I'd continue to work with him. I don't see anything wrong with the strategy you guys are pursuing. If I did, I'd jump in.

In the mean time, drive the waggy and enjoy. If she hic-ups now and then while you're sorting things out, just remind her you will get the last laugh. :victory:

she is a fickle beast, this one.

Last he mentioned, it apparently seems to be a "known" thing with the Atomic setup. He made some comment along the lines of having read about other people experincing similar issues.

I do not know what the temp ranges are for the pre-set start up programs are, but I'm betting its because it considers a 65 or 80 degree engine "warm" even though the engine hasnt been run, therefore the engine needs a moment to gain its composure because even though the ambient temperature is warm, its still a "cold" start.

My buddy with the fiTech system mentioned that his has 3 different "ranges" for the start up programs, below 60, 60-170, and 170+ for "hot" I'd assume the MSD has some sort of pre-set deal as well.

I'm not saying it was the perfect solution, but i think the last parameters you gave me, when I romped it out to Lassen NP, was the best it had ever run, in all conditions.
 

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
If I remember right, you were down on max power with the strategy we were working on. That prompted you to raise the fuel pressure and follow the strategy that Tony was suggesting.
Totally viable alternative, which is why I didn't butt in. Tony seems pretty sharp on EFI.

Why not stay with that for now, since the weather is so cold, and tune for increased mpg? If the issues come back when it warms up, or if you can't get the fuel mileage you feel you should, then we can go back and see if the strategy you and I started on makes sense to revert to.
This also buys me some time, as work is kicking my butt. Should get back to quasi-normal after the first of the year. Maybe I could make a trip up, and we could look at things together.

Also call the tech guys at MSD. Ask them if they have a sheet that is more in depth on the monitoring and tuning functions. You want them to "teach you to fish", not hand you a fish sandwich.
Since you are there with the butt-O-meter, all that is missing is you having a good understanding and some confidence in your abilities.
Once you've got the concepts down, you'll see in your mind what needs tweaking, as you drive the beast. :beer:
 

Dr. Marneaus

Station Wagoneer
If I remember right, you were down on max power with the strategy we were working on. That prompted you to raise the fuel pressure and follow the strategy that Tony was suggesting.
Totally viable alternative, which is why I didn't butt in. Tony seems pretty sharp on EFI.

Why not stay with that for now, since the weather is so cold, and tune for increased mpg? If the issues come back when it warms up, or if you can't get the fuel mileage you feel you should, then we can go back and see if the strategy you and I started on makes sense to revert to.
This also buys me some time, as work is kicking my butt. Should get back to quasi-normal after the first of the year. Maybe I could make a trip up, and we could look at things together.

Also call the tech guys at MSD. Ask them if they have a sheet that is more in depth on the monitoring and tuning functions. You want them to "teach you to fish", not hand you a fish sandwich.
Since you are there with the butt-O-meter, all that is missing is you having a good understanding and some confidence in your abilities.
Once you've got the concepts down, you'll see in your mind what needs tweaking, as you drive the beast. :beer:


I don't recall exactly it was that prompted changing our approach afterthay trip, because it ran awesome and got over 13mpg.

As soon as we switched back to lower (normal) displacement and upped the pressure the original issues seemed to reappear.

I'll have to go back and re-read.

On a side note I am working this weekend to finish up the mini version of flip so I can bring it to the original owners! It's all painted I just need to color the rims and add the chrome! At that point I will give them a brief update on the where it currently stands and what your proposed plans for it are :)
 

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
That's awesome! :)
Post a pic when you get a chance.
I'm getting the Scout back on the road so I have some room for Flip.
Brakes and fuel system, and it will be a driver. Probaby get back on it after the first of the year.
 

Dr. Marneaus

Station Wagoneer
Okay so I drove about 200 miles this weekend and it did all the exact same stuff. Including the initial drivng hiccups which seemed worse. It doesn't matter if the engine warmed up or not. Hop in start driving and within like 100 yrds it bucks and tries to die unless you let off the gas. If I stay on the gas and either try to accelerate MORE or just keep trudging through it, it'll get worse and stall. If I let off the gas, give it a sec, and try again, its a little better or equal. It seems like it's struggling until it hits like 2000 rpm for the first time, then all is well.

Also I'm getting awful mileage. I thought I noticed it on those last two trips where I towed the camper (davis lake and ft. churchill) but chalked the 8pmg up to the fact that I was pulling a trailer even though win my carb I would get 10-11mpg towing. This trip without towing and doing mostly 55-60mph I got about 9.5mpg which ain't right. Again, carbed I would get 1-12 on the highway and have pulled in as much as 14 under ideal conditions of sustained highway driving.

When I took the trip to Susanville a few months back loaded down with camping gear fire wood water etc I got like 13 mpg which included miles of slow uphill dirt roads, lots of grades, and lots of smooth highway.

On a positive note, the idle RPM's are right on target.

I think my next step now that I've fiddled around here is to try to go back to that tune, which was the 400 CID one, and see how it performs.

Right now, I'm running 360 CID, 45PSI, Idle AFR 13.6 or 13.7, Cruise AFR 14.5 (seems to have no negative effect), and WOT AFR is 12.5. Power valve i think is set to 30%, and pump squirt is set to 15%.

Planning to go to 400CID, 25PSI, and then keep the rest where it all is and see how things pan out.

Another related but unrelated item is that maybe 1/3rd of the times i shut the engine down now, the starter and flex plate are not aligned and I get the awful grind. I have to put the truck in gear, rock it or let it roll a tiny bit, and then try again. I only ever used to get this if i killed then engine while it was at like 1100 RPM. Seems like it wouldnt stop in a natural spot. Now, when I'm idling, my RPM is about 850, and it;s doing the same thing. I try my best to shut it down with the RPM's in the 900 range which seems to keep it from grinding, but I found it odd that it's stopping in a weird spot now that I have it all adjusted as such.
 

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
When you change back to the lower pressure and 400ci, after you drive it for about 100 miles, don't hesitate to increase the power valve, if you find the power is down.
The reason I suggested increasing the displacement, and lowering the fuel pressure was to give the unit a better chance at maintaining a consistent "wetness" in the intake manifold runners. This helps with hesitation issues. it also makes for smoother transitions.
I don't know this for fact, but... I'm pretty sure this system is modeled off a late model small block Chevy with aluminum intake. That is a whole different world, than pretty much every other engine, save an EFI 302 Ford (and even that is not apples to apples due to the way the distributor changes the front intake runner).

Three things to consider with the strategy I'm suggesting:
1). You may find a more optimal point than 400ci. I used that as a "safe move" to see where we needed to go (i.e. big targeting move). Since this system is not a maf strategy, globally we need to find out what point best matches your engine, keeping the tuning features as close to standard as possible. The bigger the increase in cubic inch you choose, the more Power Valve you'll need to add. If you get above 50% power valve we should look at decreasing cubic inch.

2). I'm committed to the lower fuel pressure. I'm basing this on the horse power level and torque curve of your engine. Just because I'm committed to this strategy, doesn't make it the best, or only way to go.
The only thing I would suggest, is that if you decide to raise fuel pressure, please talk to the MSD techs. I think they will tell you the same. But they may have a better strategy.
In the end, what i really want is for your Waggy to start, stop and run awesome. What ever you do won't hurt my feelings, so long as it moves you towards that point.

3). Ultimately I'm hoping you chose to use the timing control. Not absolutely necessary to add more complexity at this point, but timing control (with a good strategy) does great things to help make an engine smooth. Smooth at idle, and smooth through transitions. I'd like to see you get back to 14.0 idle stoich or higher without a rough idle. 13.7 is raising your HC and CO. Idling in an area without good air movement is not healthy.

Anyway I hope this helps.

On the starter issue, it would be worthwhile to pull the inspection plate, and look closely at the ring gear. I always recommend to break the cycle by reviewing the entire system, and repair-replace every worn component all at once. Then if the system is properly maintained, and quality parts/repairs were used/done, that should be the end of the issue for a hundred thousand miles or so.
If you can get a quality made reduction gear starter, so much the better. It's a way better design for a lot of reasons.
Think of it like your favorite Grandma in the whole world relied on that vehicle to get her around in the worst winters imaginable.
Maybe you'll get lucky and be her favorite Grandson at Christmas time. We can all use a Grandma knitted Christmas sweater. Or a great running, easy starting Totally **************' Waggy Ride. :)
 

Dr. Marneaus

Station Wagoneer
When you change back to the lower pressure and 400ci, after you drive it for about 100 miles, don't hesitate to increase the power valve, if you find the power is down.
The reason I suggested increasing the displacement, and lowering the fuel pressure was to give the unit a better chance at maintaining a consistent "wetness" in the intake manifold runners. This helps with hesitation issues. it also makes for smoother transitions.
I don't know this for fact, but... I'm pretty sure this system is modeled off a late model small block Chevy with aluminum intake. That is a whole different world, than pretty much every other engine, save an EFI 302 Ford (and even that is not apples to apples due to the way the distributor changes the front intake runner).

Three things to consider with the strategy I'm suggesting:
1). You may find a more optimal point than 400ci. I used that as a "safe move" to see where we needed to go (i.e. big targeting move). Since this system is not a maf strategy, globally we need to find out what point best matches your engine, keeping the tuning features as close to standard as possible. The bigger the increase in cubic inch you choose, the more Power Valve you'll need to add. If you get above 50% power valve we should look at decreasing cubic inch.

2). I'm committed to the lower fuel pressure. I'm basing this on the horse power level and torque curve of your engine. Just because I'm committed to this strategy, doesn't make it the best, or only way to go.
The only thing I would suggest, is that if you decide to raise fuel pressure, please talk to the MSD techs. I think they will tell you the same. But they may have a better strategy.
In the end, what i really want is for your Waggy to start, stop and run awesome. What ever you do won't hurt my feelings, so long as it moves you towards that point.

3). Ultimately I'm hoping you chose to use the timing control. Not absolutely necessary to add more complexity at this point, but timing control (with a good strategy) does great things to help make an engine smooth. Smooth at idle, and smooth through transitions. I'd like to see you get back to 14.0 idle stoich or higher without a rough idle. 13.7 is raising your HC and CO. Idling in an area without good air movement is not healthy.

Anyway I hope this helps.

On the starter issue, it would be worthwhile to pull the inspection plate, and look closely at the ring gear. I always recommend to break the cycle by reviewing the entire system, and repair-replace every worn component all at once. Then if the system is properly maintained, and quality parts/repairs were used/done, that should be the end of the issue for a hundred thousand miles or so.
If you can get a quality made reduction gear starter, so much the better. It's a way better design for a lot of reasons.
Think of it like your favorite Grandma in the whole world relied on that vehicle to get her around in the worst winters imaginable.
Maybe you'll get lucky and be her favorite Grandson at Christmas time. We can all use a Grandma knitted Christmas sweater. Or a great running, easy starting Totally **************' Waggy Ride. :)

Scott,
Thanks for taking the time to type this. In no way shape or form do I doubt the knowledge level of the other fellas on FSJ, but it is clear to me that they do not know as much about this particular system as they do about the standard GM TBI type setups. Currently, most of the comments going on in my thread are about how its a shame and makes things so much more difficult that I cant get any logged data out of this system.

anyway, I'm going to follow your strategy here and see where it gets me, because to the best of my recollection it ran the best when I had that tune going. It was smooth/calm, got decent fuel mileage, and performed fine except the hunting which is currently STILL a persistant problem.

In regard to the starter, I'm really not sure where all this came from other than being in relation to the idle RPM. I put a new flexplate and starter in when I did my engine swap about 4 years ago.
 

Comanche Scott

Expedition Leader
If the grinding continues after the change in tune it would be worth checking out.

Hunting will be helped by the timing function as well, because it can react immediately, where fueling changes and idle air bypass lag behind. So that's another reason to look at this down the road.
At this point, I'd leave the hunting for last. Unless we are hunting wabbit... ;)
 

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