Gas vs Diesel Shootout in the Dunes & Sand

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Probably does - I know Toyota used them in their Hiluxes too in the past but they were factory supported highly tuned engines, Audi races/raced a diesel at Lemans and did well too but I know my old TDI revved to 5k, which is 2k over what most full size diesels rev, so I'd draw a line at 'performance/race' diesels and what we can get our hands on....I think that Kamaz falls into that same category :)

Sounds kinda like excuses. Plenty of diesel vehicles world over that drive in 'sand' without many issues. The performance just goes up the more you tinker with them. There is very little difference in power, or even powerband, between a modern gas and diesel engine. The new Jeep Wrangler 3.0 diesel in the USA is a good example. A diesel might take a slightly different driving style to anticipate stuff like some turbo lag, but that is the same for all turbo engines, not just diesels.

A straight pipe BMW M57 straight six engine swapped in a patrol makes all kinds of wheel speed....not THAT exotic....

 

Betarocker

Adventurer
Weight vs sand the lighter you are the better sand traversing ability you have. Diesel is heavy and definitely not quick.
Most of these overlanders are loaded to max axle capacity, so the difference in engine weight won't be a factor. A 10000 pound gas engined truck weighs the same as a 10000 pound diesel truck. You probably haven't driven a diesel pick up recently. Acceleration and speed are not an issue.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Sounds kinda like excuses. Plenty of diesel vehicles world over that drive in 'sand' without many issues. The performance just goes up the more you tinker with them. There is very little difference in power, or even powerband, between a modern gas and diesel engine. The new Jeep Wrangler 3.0 diesel in the USA is a good example. A diesel might take a slightly different driving style to anticipate stuff like some turbo lag, but that is the same for all turbo engines, not just diesels.

A straight pipe BMW M57 straight six engine swapped in a patrol makes all kinds of wheel speed....not THAT exotic....

Excuses? Very strange comment / way to put it, I'm just stating what I've seen without having to google it on YouTube. If anything your post comes across as defensive, but again, this is a quantitative / pratical discussion not an emotional one.....

I'd disagree, most Gas / Petrol rigs have much different powerbands.....always exceptions (as all your examples seem to be), but generally gas has more HP at higher RPM, both of which are good for sand based on my experience and observations.

Gas rigs generally have a higher HP / weight and broader powerband. For most rigs, diesels have lower HP vs gas so I'd disagree there is not a difference in power....for full size trucks they are close, but for many other vehicle types Gas engines are generally more 'powerful' across a broader RPM. Using the Jeep gas vs diesel:

Diesel 3.0; 260 hp @ 3600 RPM (effective range 1300 to 3600); spread of 2300
Gas 3.6; 285 hp @ 6400 RPM (effective range 2000 to 6400); spread of 4400

Doesn't get much different than that, using the example you gave, that's what, ~85%+ more RPM range, which can be important in mud and sand.

Same story for full size rigs, but more extreme, look at Ford:

Diesel 6.7; 475 hp @ 2600 RPM (range 1000 to 2600); spread of 1600
Gas 7.3; 455 hp @ 5500 RPM (range 2000 to 5500); spread of 3500

More than 2x.....
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Excuses? Very strange comment / way to put it, I'm just stating what I've seen without having to google it on YouTube. If anything your post comes across as defensive, but again, this is a quantitative / pratical discussion not an emotional one.....

I'd disagree, most Gas / Petrol rigs have much different powerbands.....always exceptions (as all your examples seem to be), but generally gas has more HP at higher RPM, both of which are good for sand based on my experience and observations.

Gas rigs generally have a higher HP / weight and broader powerband. For most rigs, diesels have lower HP vs gas so I'd disagree there is not a difference in power....for full size trucks they are close, but for many other vehicle types Gas engines are generally more 'powerful' across a broader RPM. Using the Jeep gas vs diesel:

Diesel 3.0; 260 hp @ 3600 RPM (effective range 1300 to 3600); spread of 2300
Gas 3.6; 285 hp @ 6400 RPM (effective range 2000 to 6400); spread of 4400

Doesn't get much different than that, using the example you gave, that's what, ~85%+ more RPM range, which can be important in mud and sand.

Same story for full size rigs, but more extreme, look at Ford:

Diesel 6.7; 475 hp @ 2600 RPM (range 1000 to 2600); spread of 1600
Gas 7.3; 455 hp @ 5500 RPM (range 2000 to 5500); spread of 3500

More than 2x.....

Not quite.....you are looking at peak HP, not an honest overall RPM range.

The Jeep 3.0 diesel has a factory 4600rpm redline and makes PEAK torque ( more like a plateau) all the way down at 1400rpm ( with 442ft.lbs(!) mind you and 260hp )
The Jeep 3.6 gas doesn't make peak torque till 4200rpm with only 270ftlbs and then has to be wrung out to 6400(!)rpm to make peak HP (at 305hp) ( redline is also very close to peak power, ie fuel cut)

So really you are only losing about 2k rpm 'range'.....but why you think you need that much range is the underlying issue.

With an 8-spd automatic, in either case, this should be moot. It's the transmissions job to keep the engine in the power band. That low RPM grunt really helps getting big aired down tires moving. The engine doesn't HAVE to be rung out to 6K to get the tires to spin. I will say, most factory transmission tuning is pretty poor and doesn't always do what you want. The Rubicon package Jeeps with the 4:1 transfer case make a lot of these issues worse in sand/mud. In 4:1 low range you might actually need that extra few thousand RPM to get some decent wheel speed. That is a gearing issue though, not an engine issue. With the 8-spd automatic there is very little need for the 4:1 transfer case in my option, it just gears the magic out of the torque converter down low and limits wheel speed in low range drastically.

One of the vehicles that seemed to really shake this up is the 392 Hemi Wrangler. They put a 2.72 transfer case in it and it works so much better all around in my option. The 392 also has that meaty low and mid range torque. Rarely does it seem to need to be screaming off the rev limiter like all the 3.6 Rubicon Wranglers I see on the trail.

Just my opinion based off what I see on the trail, online, offline, whatever. Two people can have different views, it's ok.

Our choices in the USA are extremely limited for smaller modern diesel engines, comparing how a 8000lb USA diesel truck is doing in the sand compared to a 4000lb gas Jeep isn't really a fair shake. Most other places in the world have a LOT more modern small diesel engines...and they seem to get around everywhere just fine. I'd love to do a direct comparison between all the different Jeep options in the USA ( along with some transfer case changes ) to see how they compare. I highly doubt many people in the USA are going to choose a 3.6 gas vs 3.0 diesel based on performance alone. The only thing that would shake that up would be the 392 Hemi in my opinion.....at least till they have to do their first long range trip. The 392 Hemi could really use a 30+ gallon fuel tank!
 

nickw

Adventurer
Not quite.....you are looking at peak HP, not an honest overall RPM range.

The Jeep 3.0 diesel has a factory 4600rpm redline and makes PEAK torque ( more like a plateau) all the way down at 1400rpm ( with 442ft.lbs(!) mind you and 260hp )
The Jeep 3.6 gas doesn't make peak torque till 4200rpm with only 270ftlbs and then has to be wrung out to 6400(!)rpm to make peak HP (at 305hp) ( redline is also very close to peak power, ie fuel cut)

So really you are only losing about 2k rpm 'range'.....but why you think you need that much range is the underlying issue.

With an 8-spd automatic, in either case, this should be moot. It's the transmissions job to keep the engine in the power band. That low RPM grunt really helps getting big aired down tires moving. The engine doesn't HAVE to be rung out to 6K to get the tires to spin. I will say, most factory transmission tuning is pretty poor and doesn't always do what you want. The Rubicon package Jeeps with the 4:1 transfer case make a lot of these issues worse in sand/mud. In 4:1 low range you might actually need that extra few thousand RPM to get some decent wheel speed. That is a gearing issue though, not an engine issue. With the 8-spd automatic there is very little need for the 4:1 transfer case in my option, it just gears the magic out of the torque converter down low and limits wheel speed in low range drastically.

One of the vehicles that seemed to really shake this up is the 392 Hemi Wrangler. They put a 2.72 transfer case in it and it works so much better all around in my option. The 392 also has that meaty low and mid range torque. Rarely does it seem to need to be screaming off the rev limiter like all the 3.6 Rubicon Wranglers I see on the trail.

Just my opinion based off what I see on the trail, online, offline, whatever. Two people can have different views, it's ok.

Our choices in the USA are extremely limited for smaller modern diesel engines, comparing how a 8000lb USA diesel truck is doing in the sand compared to a 4000lb gas Jeep isn't really a fair shake. Most other places in the world have a LOT more modern small diesel engines...and they seem to get around everywhere just fine. I'd love to do a direct comparison between all the different Jeep options in the USA ( along with some transfer case changes ) to see how they compare. I highly doubt many people in the USA are going to choose a 3.6 gas vs 3.0 diesel based on performance alone. The only thing that would shake that up would be the 392 Hemi in my opinion.....at least till they have to do their first long range trip. The 392 Hemi could really use a 30+ gallon fuel tank!
Different opinions is reasonable and expected, but when you use terms like "excuses" it's a bit strange TBH.

Using my figures I'm trying to show effective rpm range for engines, up to HP max, which is effective range, once HP drops it's a losing proposition. As my original post states, 2100 RPM's additional, just like you came up with, it's significant and is easily a single or double gear shift! Engine torque is largely meaningless when gears are in play, wheel torque or tractive effort is all the matters which is 100% driven by HP, HP = torque potential at wheels.....due to gearing, torque alone at engine is a useless number....don't even get me started on the how fast you hit a brick wall analogy....

Ignor fuel consumption, longevity and noise for a moment - there is not much practical difference between driving around in the dunes in a diesel Jeep in a higher gear vs a petrol one in lower....higher RPM but sim torque at wheels, as long as HP is sim.

Lets use a practical application, steep run into a dune or say recovering a rig with a snatch strap, you don't need high HP at low RPM initially (diesel or gear reduced petrol) since you are on flat ground without high HP needs, once you get going you'r going to need to keep wheel speed up which is doable on a petrol but on the diesel you may have to shift mid pull which is less than ideal in an auto and all but impossible if you were using a manual.

So the takehome is you'll have to shift, shifting gets you wheel speed, but it's a momentum killer (as I pointed out earlier) and hard on a drivetrain.

I'm not comparing a 8000 lb truck to a 4000 lb one, I think a petrol jeep would be a better option vs diesel for dunes also.

I'd never pay a premium for a diesel in a 4x4 rig unless I needed the range or if (which is a big if these days) the diesel offered better longevity or simplicity.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Different opinions is reasonable and expected, but when you use terms like "excuses" it's a bit strange TBH.

Using my figures I'm trying to show effective rpm range for engines, up to HP max, which is effective range, once HP drops it's a losing proposition. As my original post states, 2100 RPM's additional, just like you came up with, it's significant and is easily a single or double gear shift! Engine torque is largely meaningless when gears are in play, wheel torque or tractive effort is all the matters which is 100% driven by HP, HP = torque potential at wheels.....due to gearing, torque alone at engine is a useless number....don't even get me started on the how fast you hit a brick wall analogy....

Ignor fuel consumption, longevity and noise for a moment - there is not much practical difference between driving around in the dunes in a diesel Jeep in a higher gear vs a petrol one in lower....higher RPM but sim torque at wheels, as long as HP is sim.

Lets use a practical application, steep run into a dune or say recovering a rig with a snatch strap, you don't need high HP at low RPM initially (diesel or gear reduced petrol) since you are on flat ground without high HP needs, once you get going you'r going to need to keep wheel speed up which is doable on a petrol but on the diesel you may have to shift mid pull which is less than ideal in an auto and all but impossible if you were using a manual.

So the takehome is you'll have to shift, shifting gets you wheel speed, but it's a momentum killer (as I pointed out earlier) and hard on a drivetrain.

I'm not comparing a 8000 lb truck to a 4000 lb one, I think a petrol jeep would be a better option vs diesel for dunes also.

I'd never pay a premium for a diesel in a 4x4 rig unless I needed the range or if (which is a big if these days) the diesel offered better longevity or simplicity.

I disagree, torque ( especially low end torque ) helps heaps in the sand, especially with big heavy air down tires. Nobody wants to HAVE to rev the engine to 6K rpm to make any real power. If you can't generate any meaningful power down low you can just stop thinking about that extra RPM as 'helping' anything. You have to start out in a shorter gear to get going because you can't make low end power. I most definitely WANT to be able to get those tires moving, low end torque and NOT having it geared to the moon works much better for me.

I disagree on the gearing stuff too. Having more low end power will effectively make every gear you have feel broader. With any of the modern automatic transmissions the shifts are barely even discernible and you aren't going to even feel the shift. Having more torque down low will help bridge any power delivery issues.

I'd take a 3.0 diesel wrangler for everything over the 3.6 gas version....especially since I can get it with a 2.72 transfer case AND it comes with the HD 8-spd auto and the Dana 44 diffs front and back in the cheaper sport package. I've been super unimpressed with the 3.6 gas wranglers, especially the Rubicon versions with the 4:1 transfer case and automatic, in the sand/desert/mud. They are pushing 6-7k built and loaded. The V6 just isn't enough overall power for me. The only thing that works better than the 3.0 diesel is the 392 Hemi, but the range with the 392 is just proving abysmal. If there was ever a wrangler that needed a 40 gallon fuel tank, that is it! The diesel is still a much better value than the 392. The reason the 392 works better all around generally is because it has even more power than the 3.0 diesel almost everywhere.....not because of RPM range or whatever.

I'd love to have an oportunity to directly test all these options back to back to back. I definitely wouldn't make a decision based off just ONE factor like sand performance, cost, or complexity either though.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I disagree, torque ( especially low end torque ) helps heaps in the sand, especially with big heavy air down tires. Nobody wants to HAVE to rev the engine to 6K rpm to make any real power. If you can't generate any meaningful power down low you can just stop thinking about that extra RPM as 'helping' anything. You have to start out in a shorter gear to get going because you can't make low end power. I most definitely WANT to be able to get those tires moving, low end torque and NOT having it geared to the moon works much better for me.

I disagree on the gearing stuff too. Having more low end power will effectively make every gear you have feel broader. With any of the modern automatic transmissions the shifts are barely even discernible and you aren't going to even feel the shift. Having more torque down low will help bridge any power delivery issues.

I'd take a 3.0 diesel wrangler for everything over the 3.6 gas version....especially since I can get it with a 2.72 transfer case AND it comes with the HD 8-spd auto and the Dana 44 diffs front and back in the cheaper sport package. I've been super unimpressed with the 3.6 gas wranglers, especially the Rubicon versions with the 4:1 transfer case and automatic, in the sand/desert/mud. They are pushing 6-7k built and loaded. The V6 just isn't enough overall power for me. The only thing that works better than the 3.0 diesel is the 392 Hemi, but the range with the 392 is just proving abysmal. If there was ever a wrangler that needed a 40 gallon fuel tank, that is it! The diesel is still a much better value than the 392. The reason the 392 works better all around generally is because it has even more power than the 3.0 diesel almost everywhere.....not because of RPM range or whatever.

I'd love to have an oportunity to directly test all these options back to back to back. I definitely wouldn't make a decision based off just ONE factor like sand performance, cost, or complexity either though.
Torque at wheels is what we are after, as long as HP is the same, torque at wheels has the potential to be the same. Every Petrol vehicle makes "meaningful" power down low, they are not designed like F1 cars, the Jeep 3.6 for instance has a very flat torque curve for what it is, it has plenty of low end power to get it moving and is certainly designed to do that.

I think it's a big ask for even a modern transmission to perform a quick up shift under heavy load going up the face of a sand dune (for instance).
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Torque at wheels is what we are after, as long as HP is the same, torque at wheels has the potential to be the same. Every Petrol vehicle makes "meaningful" power down low, they are not designed like F1 cars, the Jeep 3.6 for instance has a very flat torque curve for what it is, it has plenty of low end power to get it moving and is certainly designed to do that.

I think it's a big ask for even a modern transmission to perform a quick up shift under heavy load going up the face of a sand dune (for instance).

Exactly. Torque. I don't want to have to have the engine at 6000 rpm to do that. Is it fun, sure, I love hearing a V8 wing itself out. I want more low end torque ( and more torque in general ) to overcome the inertia of a heavy tire and wheel combo. The Jeep 3.6 is pretty terrible at that. The new 3.6, even with the VVT, only produces sub 200ft-lbs when the 3.0 diesel is producing 400+ ft-lbs. The only comparison I find interesting is the 392 Hemi and the 3.0 diesel. I would love to test those head to head as they make similar torque, and even the torque curve is similar.

The 6L80 in my #LX45 project doesn't seem to have issues upshifting in the sand. I'd love to try a 8 or 10 speed to close up the gear gaps even more....and it is powered by a 5.3 V8 already.

I'd love to hear about exactly what type of vehicles and power levels you are trying to compare. I see sand as a question of power, more is generally better. RPM is just a patch to make up for not having enough power available to pull the gear you really want to be in.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Exactly. Torque. I don't want to have to have the engine at 6000 rpm to do that. Is it fun, sure, I love hearing a V8 wing itself out. I want more low end torque ( and more torque in general ) to overcome the inertia of a heavy tire and wheel combo. The Jeep 3.6 is pretty terrible at that. The new 3.6, even with the VVT, only produces sub 200ft-lbs when the 3.0 diesel is producing 400+ ft-lbs. The only comparison I find interesting is the 392 Hemi and the 3.0 diesel. I would love to test those head to head as they make similar torque, and even the torque curve is similar.

The 6L80 in my #LX45 project doesn't seem to have issues upshifting in the sand. I'd love to try a 8 or 10 speed to close up the gear gaps even more....and it is powered by a 5.3 V8 already.

I'd love to hear about exactly what type of vehicles and power levels you are trying to compare. I see sand as a question of power, more is generally better. RPM is just a patch to make up for not having enough power available to pull the gear you really want to be in.
Not *wanting* to rev an engine is different that having the ability to do so if needed. Petrol engines still offer wider / broader RPM ranges which allows for less shifts and less loss of momentum.

My truck upshifts in the sand too when I'm just cruising along but in high range, say 3rd gear coming up into a dune and you are into the RPM band what does the transmission want to do? Downshift, increase power, which aids acceleration and power application, a gas vehicle (in general) has a broader RPM range to allow that to happen effectively.

Does your opinion change when talking manual transmissions.....even more of a case for petrol IMO.

Like I said, power is what matters and why I hate talking torque, it's a very poor / useless metric to compare engine performance for the most part.

This thread was just an observation and an interesting conversation (so I thought), I've chatted to folks in Aus and the Middle east that do a lot of dune driving and have some buddies that do a lot of wheeling in the mud, general consensus, especially in the mud....gas is superior, effective RPM range being a big reason along with overall power, which is more of a issue with rigs like landcruisers where the Petrol options have quite a bit more *power* than the Diesel versions.
 

Peter_n_Margaret

Adventurer
In Oz, 95% of expeditioners (including me) will choose diesel (especially older ones).
I owned an F350 Cleveland 4WD motorhome once, for about 12 years. Loved the noise. Used double the fuel compared to my now rig which weighs 50% more, is much more capable and has way less power.
The diesel simply sits at 2,000rpm and does not need to be "thrashed".
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Not *wanting* to rev an engine is different that having the ability to do so if needed. Petrol engines still offer wider / broader RPM ranges which allows for less shifts and less loss of momentum.

My truck upshifts in the sand too when I'm just cruising along but in high range, say 3rd gear coming up into a dune and you are into the RPM band what does the transmission want to do? Downshift, increase power, which aids acceleration and power application, a gas vehicle (in general) has a broader RPM range to allow that to happen effectively.

Does your opinion change when talking manual transmissions.....even more of a case for petrol IMO.

Like I said, power is what matters and why I hate talking torque, it's a very poor / useless metric to compare engine performance for the most part.

This thread was just an observation and an interesting conversation (so I thought), I've chatted to folks in Aus and the Middle east that do a lot of dune driving and have some buddies that do a lot of wheeling in the mud, general consensus, especially in the mud....gas is superior, effective RPM range being a big reason along with overall power, which is more of a issue with rigs like landcruisers where the Petrol options have quite a bit more *power* than the Diesel versions.

If your transmission wants to downshift, you generally don't have enough power ( torque ). The downshift is a patch over the real issue.

No, opinion doesn't change with a manual transmission. No issues as long as the vehicle has sufficient power, specifically meaty low and mid range torque to get those big tires moving in deep sand.

Totally disagree with torque being a bad metric for power. It is THE metric for engine power. Meat under the curve. I could care less about peak HP way out at the end of the RPM curve. I think of it like a sport bike engine. They make 200+hp per liter now.....but they would make a TERRIBLE Jeep engine because that happens at like 10,000+ rpm and make very limited power down low. That just doesn't work for big heavy vehicles with big heavy tires.

If you want to post an observation, that's great, but not everyone is going to have the same opinion. Most combustion engine tech is moving to meet somewhere in the middle. Diesel engines are finding ways to make broader power with increased RPM range and less lag from the forced induction systems. Gas engines are using direct injection and higher compression ratios ( getting closer to diesel numbers ) along with variable valve technology to increase low end power. Every driver loves that low to mid rpm torque pull. It also works really good for increasing mileage when you can push a vehicle along at highway speed using double overdrives at only 1500rpm.
 

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