Heated Lithium / LifePo4 House batteries in Northern (cold) climates

[coguzzi]

Hoping someone can enlighten me on if Lithium/LifePo4 house batteries are really the best choice in my situation. I currently live in Quebec where we see colder than 32f/0c for months on end. 32F is the average charging threshold for lithium’s as we know. In the past when I lived in Colorado I did hundreds of AGM house systems before lithium gained popularity and am still a big proponent of AGM, especially where I live now. I always used high quality DEKA intimidator or other high quality brands. And properly taken care of, the lifespan was awesome IMHO. I just sold my FWC that had 2 deka 31’s that were 8 years old and still going strong.

Problem is now that Lithium is the big trend/fad, especially in “vanlife”, im talking to more and more people who are enamored on lithium and have it in their minds that lithium is what they need. So I am tempted for my next personal build to experiment with them to see if how I feel is justified or wrong so I can relay me feelings with more educated findings.

So the patient (van) will not be a daily driver, but not put in storage every winter either. Maybe driven 1 time every 2 weeks but parked outside most of the time. Redarc Manager 30 battery management system (30A dc-dc, solar mppt, shore power charger, monitor in 1 unit) and probably a 200Ah system. No huge draws since propane on board for heating/cooking, just small inverter for lap tops etc. I do agree if the van is driven everyday the choice gets easier, but just not going to be the case, my actually daily driver doesn’t even get driven everyday.

I am looking at either pair of Battle Born heated 100ah or Volthium heated 100ah (Quebec made). So these batteries are heated and made for cold climates. Heating element takes battery to roughly 41F so you can charge. Both can be discharged (used) down to -4F just not charged until over freezing.

• So what I am seeing is the heater uses 4amps and BMS/thermostat controlled so not all the time. For argument lets say that’s comparable to a fridge. So if the van is sitting for 2 weeks your basically running the fridge for the whole time and hoping the solar keeps up with the charging-in winter, or plugged into shore power I guess is an option to. If you don’t want to run the heaters if the van is just sitting you can wire a switch in line to deactivate them. But I’m kind of a “keep it simple stupid” type of person and its another thing to manage, especially for customers out of my control.

• Next CON I see is the heater is in the battery and before any battery monitor shunt. So the power used is not calculated by the battery monitor which will give false “state of charge” / amp hours remaining values. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a battery monitor if you need to recalibrate all the time.

• Next CON, everyone always talks about how Lithium has more cycles than AGM which is 100% true. But if you are running heaters just so you can use your batteries you are using life cycles everyday. So in the end, is my heated lithium battery really going to last longer than a properly taken care of AGM? Maybe im thinking about this point wrong.

Past those items, I don’t see Lithium as being any more “green” from production thru disposal, but that’s a different argument. The biggest PRO’s are more power available from same AH bank size since depth of discharge is greater, and weight saving.

SO, enlighten me, Are Lithium/LifePo4 Batteries really a gift from heaven in northern climate or should I continue to push AGM. As one of my fellow builder friends said, "If you need heaters for your batteries, you just have the wrong batteries"

 

[DiploStrat]

Talk to Battle Born, they discuss their heaters at length, but, methinks you are missing the point. The heater only turns on when under charge and should only reduce the charge rate. The heaters should not be on if the camper is simply sitting. You should not be losing any cycles at all, just getting a slower charge.

As to cycles, the best AGM will get about 1000 cycles @ 50% discharge. Most raw cell lithium iron, claim 6000+ cycles. So call it only 3,000 cycles.

And weight/size. 200Ah usable in lead acid is 400Ah of physical batteries @ 50%, needed to reach 1000 cycles. Compare with 2 100Ah lithium Iron. N.B. Battle Born's 100Ah battery is actually about 125Ah, so they build in the reserve for you.

 

[coguzzi]

The heater only turns on when under charge and should only reduce the charge rate. The heaters should not be on if the camper is simply sitting.

hmm, if that is the case, that the heater is ONLY active when it senses a charge, then you have a good point. BUT, i have read and watched all the videos on battleborn more times than i can count and from what i see this is simply not true. from the battle born site:

"The heater will be activated when the internal temperature reaches approximately 35 degrees Fahrenheit. Make sure to always disconnect the heater when storing the battery."

this sure sounds to me that the battery will be trying to heat itself anytime it is 35F or below, and they go on to say this:

"On average, the heated battery consumes an average of 1.8 amps. Our tests indicate that at 0 degrees Fahrenheit, with no insulation, the heater is on about 30% of the time. With no external charging or loads it gives approximately 185 hours of heat capability before the battery goes into low voltage disconnect." and they say many times "*ALWAYS DISCONNECT THE HEATER WHEN STORING THE BATTERY."

One could make the argument that they will always sense charge input from solar MPPT so trying to heat (reason to disconnect heater), but that is not how im reading into it

That adds another level of complication if what you say is true. The Redarc Manager 30 also has a lithium profile and temp sensor (smart charger) that will not charge if lithium battery is below 32F/0C from any of its 3 available sources (shore, alternator, solar). SO, if the battery heater does in fact only activate when it senses a charge, it will never activate using a manager 30 because its own temp sensor is shutting down charging until battery is warm enough.

i agree, think i need to contact battleborn

 

[DiploStrat]

As I say, contact Battle Born - your comments make sense. (My batteries are inside the camper and I keep the camper above 0C as I have no reliable way to drain all of the water.) Would be very interested to learn what Battle Born recommend as a read world scenario.

Also reach out to REDARC and seek their counsel. I have had very good responses.

Ca gel, le Québec! For what you are describing I think you will want a good battery disconnect or shore power to be sure.

I suspect that you will end up disconnecting the batteries, both heaters and loads when you park, and turning things on again the day before a trip, using shore power. (Which is not much different from what folks used to do with lead acids that would go flat between trips.)

 

[Christian P.]

Mike - I have a similar problem. As you know I am also from Quebec, so I totally understand your use case.

And in my case, the batteries that Battle Born sent us are not heated.

So I guess what I am saying is that I have no clue yet what I will do if I take the van back to Quebec, although with the gas prices over there right now, I may just keep it on the West Coast...



But honestly, my thought was to simply swap them for AGM batteries for the winter.

 

[coguzzi]

i have an email into Battle born. phone calls get $$ internationally-ha. i will post what they say. Redarc is always very helpful and top notch product. I always kept my FWC with AGM's plugged in for storage and like you said--top off before trip. why my batteries always lasted so long

 

[DiploStrat]

If you have the option of shore power, then you probably have the best answer.

 

[coguzzi]

Mike - I have a similar problem. As you know I am also from Quebec, so I totally understand your use case.

And in my case, the batteries that Battle Born sent us are not heated.

So I guess what I am saying is that I have no clue yet what I will do if I take the van back to Quebec, although with the gas prices over there right now, I may just keep it on the West Coast...



But honestly, my thought was to simply swap them for AGM batteries for the winter.

better bring that van back to quebec--need to meet up sometime-ha. I am still sold that AGM's are better for this climate, if i still lived in CO probably lithium no doubt. BUT, i am open to the people who know more than me to change my mind so i can stop trying to change other peoples minds as well

 

[DiploStrat]

Having moved to lithium after years of AGM, I would NEVER go back. So much easier to charge, much better performance, less weight/volume, etc.

YMMV!

 

[Alloy]

Lithium is a much better battery......if it is kept warm but not hot.

I have 4yo lead (suppose to be 800Ah but it never was) acid that cost $1,200CDN. It's been used in temps down to -21C/-7F. Warm air from the furnace keep bank above -12C /10F.

Lead acid is really heavy and charge times are frustrating. We'll get 3 hours of sun on the solar system with +/-100A available but the lead acid will only accept 30amps. Lithium on the other hand would accept the full 100A and be charged in 1/6 of the time.

I won't switch our current rig to Lithium because there are too many changes (redundant battery heating and a protection system) to make it worry free in use and while in storage.

With the temperatures we are seeing Lithium should also have a cooling system. Lead acid too but it's not worth doing for lead acid.

If I replaced our lead acid bank now it would cost (including the % for C19) $1,500CDN. That would be $2,700CDN for 4+4 years of lead acid vs. four years ago it was $4,000CND for 400Ah of Lithium. In addition there's the added cost for the heating/cooling and protection system that Lithium needs.

How long will Lithium last? ......17% battery swap for 2012 EV

Battery Survey « Plug In America

survey.pluginamerica.org

 

[coguzzi]

well, that question is answered, here is the response from Battle born:

"The BMS in the Battle Born will not allow a charge below 25F, but the heat circuit would warm the battery whether or not the battery is being charged.

We give you the option to enable and disable the heat circuit. When it is disabled, it will not turn on at all. When it is enabled, the battery would maintain the internal temperature of the battery between 35F and 45F once the battery temperature drops below freezing.

If you won't be using the battery... even if you are driving around, I would disconnect the battery by using an ON/OFF switch. If the battery isn't being used, there wouldnt be much of a reason to charge, so heating wouldnt be necessary."

So my thinking was actually correct that in this climate the heated battery (Battle born brand at least) would try to heat itself all winter long, which in reality uses your "cycles" and shortens lifespan. but do agree no sense in heating your battery all the time if all your running is occasional interior LED. but im not a fan of having to remember to turn it on, i like my stuff automated.

Also seems on average 2 hours needed to heat a battery so charge can be accepted, which eliminates just short trips past going skiing somewhere further away (my closest place i ski often is 15 minutes)

So this discussion isnt about benefits of lithium which i get in a perfect climate. its about real life usage of lithium in these arctic tundra climates some of us live (notice i didnt say "choose to" ). with that said, im still not sure.

I am going to email Volthium, Quebec manufacturer, to see if thier heater functions the same just for education. but i dont think a BMS controlled incoming charge switched heater would work well with the Redarc temperature sensing lithium profile anyway. so we will see

 

[DiploStrat]

Seems clear enough.

But isn't the real question one of heat for water as well. Would you be using the camper electrical side without heating the camper cabin about 0C? Are you planning on "winterizing" and "dewinterizing" the camper every two weeks? Is your situation really that different from using a lead acid battery? I am probably missing a detail here.

In my case, I simply keep the camper above 0F all winter.

FWIW: With a battery guaranteed for 10 years and a life expectancy of well over 3,000 cycles, any loss due to the internal heaters is minimal.

For your use, shore power seems to be an answer, assuming that you are planning to use the camper as a camper. If you are simply driving, turn the batteries off.

N.B. Remember, we are talking about charging. If you can discharge at below freezing all day long. My home brew batteries have a Bluetooth accessible BMS, so I can turn on the charge and discharge sides separately. Don't think Battle Born supports this, but it is probably moot as the Battle Born, and the REDARC, will stop charging automatically if the temperatures are wrong. Only question is if the Battle Born turns off the discharge. I would suspect/hope that it does not.

 

[coguzzi]

Oh, I was shop manager for Four wheel campers for many many years. i am VERY ANTI keeping water in a plumbed system in freezing temps. use your holding tanks as much as you want 3 of 4 seasons of the year, not winter unless you are willing to deal with consequences. its not a house--no foundation with your water lines below frost level......

 

[DiploStrat]

Oh, I was shop manager for Four wheel campers for many many years. i am VERY ANTI keeping water in a plumbed system in freezing temps. use your holding tanks as much as you want 3 of 4 seasons of the year, not winter unless you are willing to deal with consequences. its not a house--no foundation with your water lines below frost level......

Agreed. Which goes to my previous post. If you can solve the water freezing problem, lithium batteries are probably not an issue.

FWIW - I first chatted with Four Wheel back in the days when it was still Dave Rowe's company! (Yeah, I'm ancient!)

 

[Ninelitetrip]

If the van is mostly parked during the winter and the batteries are only for the house side of the operation is removing the batteries and placing them indoors for the winter not an option? Look up the storage and maintenance suggested for Lithium/LifePo4. Just keep them at 50% SOC for the months they sit idle.

Here is a plug for Will Prowse on YT. He spent years living in an RV out in California. He runs a DIY solar forum also. He has reviewed a lot of batteries, does teardown, reviews. etc.