Which EV would you buy?

badm0t0rfinger

Raptor Apologist.
@Shovel I don't know why you're responding to me as if I'm doubting your assertions. I don't doubt the math. I'm merely pontificating upon where I see the EVs in the next.... well I'm in my 20s and I would like to see the stuff before I hit the retirement home!
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
EV / PHEV - own? ie: keep it for more than 3 years? no, not now, technology is too rapidly advancing. Currently has the cell phone model, darned near so different in 3 years you can wait to get a new one, but unlike a cell phone that costs $400+ the EV costs $40K+. I lease a 2018 Outlander PHEV for those not browsing signatures.
Leasing was something we heavily researched but in my wife’s mileage/ use case in late 2015 the leasing numbers vs mileage didn’t add up. So we purchased $800 below invoice 2016 Fusion Energy Titanium. Its been a great vehicle I would even go as far as saying excellent vehicle. Easy to maintain, zero issues, excellent driving, interior so far life time mileage is 63mpg. The only negative is lack of trunk space but we only use it for commuting to work and local trips so trunk space isn’t an issue. My neighbor has a Prius same age same mileage same typical use his average is 50mpg, he can’t stand the road noise. Hates the seats and interior, has had issues with it he paid $12,000 more than I did for our executive level interior, quiet Fusion. He just told me his kid is getting the prius as soon as the Plugin F150 hits the show room?
 

Todd n Natalie

OverCamper
I'm hesitant because this is a road I've been down a lot of times and it's been pretty discouraging due to the imbalance of effort... it takes a lot more time for me to type it up than it does for a disinterested party to say "nuh uh u r dumb" without considering or addressing what I've typed. Hopefully you can sympathize.

Well, here goes.

There's nothing inherently wrong with ICE's they just turn chemical energy into kinetic energy which is not meaningfully different from what a battery and electric motor do. In fact the difference in efficiency at the prime mover doesn't even really matter. What matters about ICE's in particular is what fuel they are burning not the burning of the fuel itself.

In other words the environmental problem is fossil fuels not engines. We already know how to make renewable fuels, the recipe is basically sunlight and water.

Imagine if you wanted to print out a billion blue oval ford logos... you could either run through a hundred million liters of blue ink printing them on white paper... OR you could just switch to blue paper and only need to print the text. See where I'm going here?
A change to a renewable liquid fuel retroactively converts every existing ICE on Earth to a solar powered vehicle without having to build and deliver new ones or scrap the old ones. They've already been built, they're already where they need to be.

You might argue that renewables aren't ready yet for some reason like the old food-vs-fuel argument that's been exhaustively debunked for four decades... but I put it to you that this is no different from saying that the full promise of EV's isn't ready yet. Much of the promise of EV's even today depends on imagining a more robust grid in the future so it would be unreasonable not to give the same concession to renewable fuels. Right now in September 2020 neither EV's nor renewable liquid fuels are 100% ready without more investment so this is very much an apples-apples comparison.

It also doesn't have to be an all or nothing, a PHEV burning alcohol sounds awesome to me you get the best of both worlds. But you still also get to retroactively convert all the existing ICE infrastructure that has already had its environmental cost paid, just by changing what kind of liquid is in the tank. And you get to keep that 5 megaWatt equivalent charging rate.

So let's do a thought experiment those are always fun:

Imagine if your EV had a hot swap battery that could be pulled out and replaced while you're driving down the road. You summon a self driving charge-bot car it finds you, pulls up next to you, swaps batteries and brings your depleted battery to a solar farm to recharge. Cool?

But that charge-bot car adds extra traffic to the road and it needs maintenance and tires and stuff.

So let's go a step beyond that, we shrink the battery and have a drone fly to you and swap the battery and then fly back to a solar farm to charge your depleted battery. Cool?

But the drone is still a collision hazard, it's noisy and needs maintenance.

Let's shrink it again, now it's drones the size of dragonflies so if you crash into one it doesn't really hurt anything, plus now the drone is the battery so it shows up on your car, lands in a basket and then every few hours of driving you have to spend 5 minutes dumping the used micro drones in a bin where they get hauled off to a solar farm and get recharged. Now that's cool right?

Let's shrink them again so they're the size of a molecule. You fly a bunch of active molecules out to your car, they get depleted by your car, you spend 5 minutes exchanging them every few hours of driving, and the depleted molecules get returned to a solar farm for charging. How cool is that? Oh, I just described the process of burning biofuel in an ICE and it doesn't need to be the future we already do this right now.

All we need to do is get excited about bioengineering algae to drink seawater like we are about roadster-in-space marketing faff and we'll end up with a better, greener solution than BEV's and let our cars take an active role in reversing climate change instead of just slowing it.

I eagerly await the same response I always get to this. Cheers.
Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you proposing we manufacture bio fuel from algae to power existing ICE engines? Again, maybe I misunderstood or am over simplifying

For the active molecules, how would you fly them to your car?

I thought maybe you were going to suggest hydrogen. I do believe there was a car developed to run off sea water.

Edit: Found it

 

Todd n Natalie

OverCamper
Wrangler 4xe - 25 miles all electric mode. 50 MPGe

This is pretty interesting too....

 

F350joe

Well-known member
This is pretty interesting too....


imwas just reading about the 4XE. Not really feeling the 25mi plug in, would rather see a hybrid. This system seems too complicated for Fiat to pull off. I keep seeing that it makes more HP than the Bronco which has me wondering if its something was was rushed to slow the bronco orders.

a solar trailer or tap into some power lines that run all over everywhere. All you need to get is another 50-100 miles of more range to beat a jerrycan/ICE.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
imwas just reading about the 4XE. Not really feeling the 25mi plug in, would rather see a hybrid. This system seems too complicated for Fiat to pull off. I keep seeing that it makes more HP than the Bronco which has me wondering if its something was was rushed to slow the bronco orders.

a solar trailer or tap into some power lines that run all over everywhere. All you need to get is another 50-100 miles of more range to beat a jerrycan/ICE.
25mi ev range is actually pretty useful not to mention all the low speed non technical stuff likely would be partial ev only. Keep in mind down hill charging and ICE charging takes place of which the auto makers are getting pretty good at energy management and recovery. Plugin hybrid jeep with 25ish mile range would likely see a big range gain in trail use.
 

docwatson

Adventurer
imwas just reading about the 4XE. Not really feeling the 25mi plug in, would rather see a hybrid. This system seems too complicated for Fiat to pull off. I keep seeing that it makes more HP than the Bronco which has me wondering if its something was was rushed to slow the bronco orders.

a solar trailer or tap into some power lines that run all over everywhere. All you need to get is another 50-100 miles of more range to beat a jerrycan/ICE.
It has a hybrid mode. There is a gas only mode, an electric only mode and then a hybrid mode. Rated at 50 mpg equivalent. It does seem overly complicated for FCA but I appreciate their effort. Meanwhile Toyota, who is the king of hybrids, just adds new colors to the 4runner/Tacoma.

4xe makes me less impressed with the Bronco. I'll gladly leave my doors in my front yard with their mirrors on them to only pay for gas on weekends.
 
It has a hybrid mode. There is a gas only mode, an electric only mode and then a hybrid mode. Rated at 50 mpg equivalent. It does seem overly complicated for FCA but I appreciate their effort. Meanwhile Toyota, who is the king of hybrids, just adds new colors to the 4runner/Tacoma.

4xe makes me less impressed with the Bronco. I'll gladly leave my doors in my front yard with their mirrors on them to only pay for gas on weekends.
The current Wrangler is a mild hybrid, so is the Ram. Just don’t tell anyone! FCA did the 500e and there is a redesigned one now and the Fiat Duccato (spelling?) aka the Promaster is available as a BEV. Oh and the Pacifica, which is a solid PHEV.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
It has a hybrid mode. There is a gas only mode, an electric only mode and then a hybrid mode. Rated at 50 mpg equivalent. It does seem overly complicated for FCA but I appreciate their effort. Meanwhile Toyota, who is the king of hybrids, just adds new colors to the 4runner/Tacoma.

4xe makes me less impressed with the Bronco. I'll gladly leave my doors in my front yard with their mirrors on them to only pay for gas on weekends.
Hybrid mode is going to rule the off road stuff. The bump in range crawling the easy stuff and down hill stuff will really bump the jeep range. The added grunt in duel mode will make the jeeper guys pretty happy. I don’t see a down side unless payload is impacted in a sizable way or it turns into a maintenance disaster some how.
 

billiebob

Well-known member
Looks like the infrastructure is getting there.






I think the recharge time is still a hindrance. Most gas stations have what...8 pumps? If there is only 1 or 2 charge stations, how long would it take to charged up? With gas it's what....5 minutes?
The Tesla SuperCharging Stations in the US are partnering with Starbucks and sure it takes 20 minutes to get 80% but they sell a coffee and while charging you get the fastest connection to get current with email, twitter, ???? It is just a matter of accepting there are many things you can do rather than standing beside your car holding a smelly nozzle. Many have already adapted. The naysayers have no idea.

As a commuter, you charge at home, never needing to line up at the pumps again or wait while the idiot in front of you decides if he wants the extra with his quick pick. The tank is full every morning. I'd love it.
 

F350joe

Well-known member
It has a hybrid mode. There is a gas only mode, an electric only mode and then a hybrid mode. Rated at 50 mpg equivalent. It does seem overly complicated for FCA but I appreciate their effort. Meanwhile Toyota, who is the king of hybrids, just adds new colors to the 4runner/Tacoma.

4xe makes me less impressed with the Bronco. I'll gladly leave my doors in my front yard with their mirrors on them to only pay for gas on weekends.

That does sound pretty useful actually. now if the bronco puts in the same system as the f150 maybe we could get some healthy competition/innovation speeding up development.

I hope toyota is just in super secret dev mode because they are woefully behind but could probably do this EV thing better than ford or fiat. They are going to need to pull a rabbit out of their hat pretty quick here if they want to stay relevant.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
That does sound pretty useful actually. now if the bronco puts in the same system as the f150 maybe we could get some healthy competition/innovation speeding up development.

I hope toyota is just in super secret dev mode because they are woefully behind but could probably do this EV thing better than ford or fiat. They are going to need to pull a rabbit out of their hat pretty quick here if they want to stay relevant.
Back when Elon was hand building Electric Lotus’s Wired MAGAZINE did a really interesting interview with Elon. He explained how Tesla and the NUMI plant happened. In that story top Toyota brass were most interested in how he found the creative new ideas. IE even several years ago Toyota knew they had a serious lack of design creativity and it would be a problem for them.

My plugin Ford Fusion running Toyota hybrid technology is packaged far superior than the Prius which doesn’t even get a US located charge port!!! I had Toyotas for 25 years and I honestly can say Toyota was so disappointing and uninspiring my purchase last year I never even looked at Toyota as an option.
 

F350joe

Well-known member
Back when Elon was hand building Electric Lotus’s Wired MAGAZINE did a really interesting interview with Elon. He explained how Tesla and the NUMI plant happened. In that story top Toyota brass were most interested in how he found the creative new ideas. IE even several years ago Toyota knew they had a serious lack of design creativity and it would be a problem for them.

My plugin Ford Fusion running Toyota hybrid technology is packaged far superior than the Prius which doesn’t even get a US located charge port!!! I had Toyotas for 25 years and I honestly can say Toyota was so disappointing and uninspiring my purchase last year I never even looked at Toyota as an option.

Seems like they could import some talent but that would explain why they have been so stagnant. I swore off toyota as well but ended up in a Lexus so I failed, kind of. I had a 3.0 extracab for a long time that was just a pile. Years later had a tacoma with only about 30k miles burst into flames while I was driving it and really was not at all sad about it. Tigher and smoother than ford, I will give them that. At least with the GX there is a v8 and plenty of power to go with the crappy fuel milage. I have had several fords and never a bad one, doesn’t surprise me the Fusion has served you well. May have to look into a used one when the used car prices drop at the end of the year. You are in an Expedition now right? How has that been on the trail?

toyota may just sit out the next couple years as all these new models work out the kinks.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you proposing we manufacture bio fuel from algae to power existing ICE engines? Again, maybe I misunderstood or am over simplifying

For the active molecules, how would you fly them to your car?

I thought maybe you were going to suggest hydrogen. I do believe there was a car developed to run off sea water.

Edit: Found it

My neighbor was part of a bio fuel research group their focus as algae the funding for that research dried up 4 years ago. The take away was it’s possible but not on a scale that would be profitable enough. Especially today with refinery orders way down.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Seems like they could import some talent but that would explain why they have been so stagnant. I swore off toyota as well but ended up in a Lexus so I failed, kind of. I had a 3.0 extracab for a long time that was just a pile. Years later had a tacoma with only about 30k miles burst into flames while I was driving it and really was not at all sad about it. Tigher and smoother than ford, I will give them that. At least with the GX there is a v8 and plenty of power to go with the crappy fuel milage. I have had several fords and never a bad one, doesn’t surprise me the Fusion has served you well. May have to look into a used one when the used car prices drop at the end of the year. You are in an Expedition now right? How has that been on the trail?

toyota may just sit out the next couple years as all these new models work out the kinks.
I think importing talent was a game plan in their big Tesla buy in. But I suspect the Tesla Talent and ideas have been way out of the Toyota comfort zone.
 

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