Deciding between Webasto and Espar for heat and hot water and where to mount it

[Darwin]

Trying to decide going with a Webasto dual top evo or Espar hydronic for heat and hot water. One of the issues is I believe Espar says the unit must be mounted outside, which I would rather not do since I am planing demountable box mounted onto a flat bed. I would NOT be tying into the vehicles fuel tank and instead use a marine 5 gallon tank, again because the box will be demountable.

The Advantage I see to the Webasto dual top is that I know people some mount them inside the cabin, example Earthcruiser and XP campers both do this. The Issue I have with the Webasto though is that it automatically drains when the temp drops so it must be kept running all the time in freezing temperature thus using more fuel. I know Rixen makes a full set up using an Espar hydronic heater but their install intent is to be mounted outside and below a sprinter.

Anyone have experience with either of those two units?

Sincerely,
Darwin

 

[Darwin]

Okay I am leaning towards the Webasto dual top since I haven't come across anybody mounting an espar inside.

 

[javajoe79]

Personally I don't see an issue with an inside mount if you properly duct the unit and vent the space it's in. You just want the area sealed from the inside, vented to the outside with only the coolant hoses passing out of the space into the camper.

 

[Darwin]

Javajoe, that's what I was thinking with the espar. With the webasto that does not appear to be necessary as long as the intake and exhaust are plumbed to the outside. I am going to investigate Rixen which uses espar and is a complete kit but geared mainly to the van crowd.

 

[waveslider]

FYI...

https://expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/hydronic-vs-non-hydronic-heating-air-water.193270/

 

[nathane]

I have decided to use a chassis mounted webasto thermotop c connected into the engine cooling circuit and a marine calorifier (liquid to liquid heat exchanger). Engine will heat water when running. Thermo top will heat water when stationary and will pre heat engine if required in cold start up mode.

A second coil in the calorifier will then heat a glycol mix to flow into radiators and an underfloor heating circuit.

This set up gives me hot water, heating, engine preheat as outputs driven by engine or webasto as inputs.

 

[Dannyboyski]

I am just removing a dual top from my crafter... exchanging to hydronic D5. I am in the process of trying to nail out plans for an integrated engine loop with isolating valve (single rather than dual so hopefully I can utilise the vehicle header tank only) single coil calorifier & hopefully underfloor heating for quiet radiant heat and blower matrix for when I need some extra power.

The dual top is a good machine, but I found the blown air heating quite dry and irritating to the sinuses. (this might be just me as I definitely have awkward sinuses) it also takes up a lot of space compared to the above system where items can be configured separately. therefore where you mount it directly impacts carrying underslung water tanks etc.

If you are going to spend any sort of extended time in your vehicle, I would encourage a wet heating system. much more comfortable heat!

I'm sure you could mount the d5 internally ... maybe even an airtight (think gas) type box...?? Its not very big!

I have a used dual top if you want it. evo 8 with snazzy electric control panel! good working order! (I'm UK based)

 

[grizzlyj]

Hi
Eberspacher told me mounting a hydronic heater inside would not be allowed although I don't know whose rules? Not theirs certainly. I think the issue was not being able to guarantee the water and combustion chamber staying separate if it failed so you could get exhaust fumes internally Their airtronic can be fitted inside. I don't know what Webasto do differently to allow internal hydronic? Of course, externally could mean at the front or rear so flat bed dis-mountable is still possible perhaps?

 

[DiploStrat]

Trying to decide going with a Webasto dual top evo or Espar hydronic for heat and hot water. One of the issues is I believe Espar says the unit must be mounted outside, which I would rather not do since I am planing demountable box mounted onto a flat bed. I would NOT be tying into the vehicles fuel tank and instead use a marine 5 gallon tank, again because the box will be demountable.

The Advantage I see to the Webasto dual top is that I know people some mount them inside the cabin, example Earthcruiser and XP campers both do this. The Issue I have with the Webasto though is that it automatically drains when the temp drops so it must be kept running all the time in freezing temperature thus using more fuel. I know Rixen makes a full set up using an Espar hydronic heater but their install intent is to be mounted outside and below a sprinter.

Anyone have experience with either of those two units?

Sincerely,
Darwin

Have had two Dual Tops, one worked sometimes, the other works all the time. Friend of mine went through two before giving up and going Rixen. Starting over I would go Rixen. One phone chat with Jim will tell you why.

Dual Top service is basically impossible in North America, WEBASTO dealers won't touch them and you are at the mercy of the person who built your camper. One reason that at least one of the companies mentioned above is looking at alternatives. Espar has a great reputation all over the country.

That said, when the Dual Top works, it is great. You turn it on, you leave it on. Hot water only in summer, hot air and hot water in winter. Do NOT turn it on and off every day - this is an invitation for faults. soot build up, etc. The fuel consumption is minimal. Actually, you probably use more battery than diesel.

All of these units have to be kept on in freezing weather.

 

[Darwin]

Thanks Diplo, Yes I saw where it sounds like XP is going a different route now then using the dual top. I have at this point decided to go with Espar for all the reasons you mention. I will be curious to see where XP mounts their Espar, everything I have read says it needs to be mounted outside the camper, which is what initially drew me to the Webasto since I had seen installations of the unit inside.

I thought about Rixen, still not sure on it, it seems a little complex with all the plumbing.

 

[DiploStrat]

I have no personal experience with Espar products or the Rixen implementation. I do know that Tiger gave up on Webasto and went Rixen. (Mine, when sold, was the only Dual Top still installed and working.) The Tiger owner that I know who did have trouble with his Rixen unit reported that the Espar dealers in Alaska were prompt and responsive. This contrasts with driving 300 miles to a Webasto dealer only to be told that they would not work on a Dual Top.

Rixen uses an Espar furnace along with a tank/heater of his own design. Neil of Cloud 9 (one of my imaginary friends on the internet) offers some interesting comments on Webasto vs. Espar here: http://cloud9isborn.blogspot.com/p/heating-and-plumbing.html Also lots of great photos. He has had some misadventures in South America, including a roll over, but is now in Bolivia and ready to stress test his heat! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cloud9onto...i4GwUh1O5_a_hQQJnt9ifsgscFrdykl158X6M&fref=nf Website: http://www.cloud9ontour.com

Another thread on this subject: https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/espar-vs-webasto-which-is-best.187958/#post-2404667

Espar does not make a combo unit, so if you want hot air heat, you end up with one unit (Airtronic) for the cabin and one for you hot water. I saw one build done this way. The builder commented that this was the easiest approach. More pieces, but easier to install. First video here: He has a LOT of videos that are worth watching. This first one discusses why he with with two units.

The other alternative is to use hot water heat (e.g. Rixen). This has its own advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that you have only one furnace. Perhaps the most interesting possibility is radiant heat in the floor, but a few that I have corresponded with said that they could not do a floor system that would lose heat fast enough, so they still had to include radiators with fans.

Finally, an atomized installation, as with Advanced RV, may have many advantages, especially in a smaller vehicle as you can spread things around and only place those parts that must be protected from freezing inside the camper. (https://advanced-rv.com) Dig around in their videos.

I am looking at an Espar pre-heater for my 917 as it does not have glow plugs and I cannot get the ether canisters in the US. Plus, and perhaps most important of all, it smokes like a chimney when starting below freezing. We're talking real neighborhood fumigating smoke!

 

[Joe917]

I would forget bout the Dualtop and go wet system Thermotop C. Cheaper and more reliable.
The Thermotop C also works perfectly with the Heatmiser Slimline Thermostat.

 

[Darwin]

Leaning toward a Rixen like set up lately. The only concept I don't get is if I piece together a system using the same basic components how is it thermostatically controlled? I believe the Espar D5 has an internal thermostat, but what about convection heaters? It seems the benefit with a full Rixen heater set up is the control panel and thermostat it uses, everything else can be sourced individually.

 

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

I've gone back and forth over a ton of various options with both of these.

As of now (subject to change 50 more times before i get to doing it) my solution, is bigger battery bank and more solar to be able to use an electric water heater, and the simple tried and true Espar D2 for cabin heat.

This simplifies the hell out of EVERYTHING honestly and adds the bonus of more power and solar for every other use in the camper.

 

[1000arms]

... As of now (subject to change 50 more times before i get to doing it) my solution, is bigger battery bank and more solar to be able to use an electric water heater, and the simple tried and true Espar D2 for cabin heat. ...

You might look at using a "Heat Pump Water Heater" if you can find one in the shape/size you need to keep the center of gravity down. It would fit right in with what you have listed, and, in the right conditions, use a lot less electricity to heat the water.

... ... ...

For those filing US tax returns, there may be a federal tax credit on solar panels and heat pump water heaters, for the primary or secondary home.

The IRS states " A home includes a house, condominium, cooperative, mobile home, house trailer, boat, or similar property that has sleeping, cooking, and toilet facilities." under "Qualified home" at

Publication 936 (2023), Home Mortgage Interest Deduction | Internal Revenue Service

www.irs.gov

For solar federal tax credit info, see

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2020/01/f70/Guide%20to%20Federal%20Tax%20Credit%20for%20Residential%20Solar%20PV.pdf

... ... ...

To avoid hijacking this thread, I started a new thread:

https://expeditionportal.com/forum/...al-tax-credit-for-solar-photovoltaics.216722/