biotect
Designer
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Julius0377,
Once again, many thanks for all the feedback!
Your replies have inspired a very long response; hope you won't mind…..
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1. Diesel versus LPG
Some participants on ExPo are strongly pro-diesel and anti-LPG, and Earthroamer is famous for completely eliminating LPG – see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/safety/no-volatile-propane/ , http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/safety/ , and
http://earthroamer.com/employees-facilities/ . I am in the same camp.
It's worth quoting a summary of diesel's advantages from Webasto's website:
However, I will grant that there are good arguments to be made for a “tri-fuel” set-up, which mixes diesel, gas, and electric. In your second post above you made those arguments, so I won't repeat them here.
It's interesting that on one web-page in particular, Webasto seems to advocate for gas/diesel “hybrid” solutions – see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-...-vehicles/heating-solutions/hybrid-solutions/ .
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2. Boiler: Isotherm versus Elenga versus Whale? All-Electric or LPG/Electric?
Interesting point about the difficulty of finding diesel-powered water boilers, equivalent to the ones made by Elenga or Isotherm – see http://www.elgena.de/index.php/produkt.html , http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...u=http://www.elgena.de/index.php/produkt.html , http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_34 , http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_34_62 , http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_34_57 , and http://www.webasto.com/gb/markets-p...s/boiler-calorifier/isotemp-electric-boilers/ .
Above you wrote:
I am inclined to agree that the 10-12 liter boilers attached to “integrated” heating solutions like the Truma Combi 6 DE, the Alde 3010 Combi, or the Webasto Dual Top, might prove insufficient, and should be supplemented with a dedicated water boiler.
In his original proposal LoRoad specified an Isotherm as well.
Can an Elenga boiler be LPG driven as well? It's hard to determine from the website if any of Elenga's boilers are. Sure, they offer lots of different combinations of electrical power, but LPG does not seem to be an option – see for instance http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...odukt/druckfest/nautic-therm-s.html&sandbox=1 . But if Elenga boilers could be heated by LPG too, and if one has LPG on-board in any case, then perhaps an Elenga boiler would be preferred to an Isotherm?
Webasto sells the “Whale” boiler, which is most definitely dual-fuel, both LPG and electric powered – see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-...boiler-calorifier/whale-gas-electric-boilers/ , http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/produc...0&Product_ID=21&FriendlyID=Water-Heater-13ltr , http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/Water_heating_brochure.pdf , http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFi...ry/CaravanBrochure2014_reducdedsizeforWeb.pdf . But the “Whale” boiler is only 13 L, in contrast to Isotherm boilers, which are available in sizes from 15 L to 75 L; and Elenga boilers, which are available as small as 3 L and as large as 50 L – see for instance http://translate.googleusercontent....m.html&usg=ALkJrhhhXSmm_Z0y69-k1uR16XSTEXpJbQ .
Given that the whole point to an additional boiler would be to significantly supplement the 10 – 12 L boilers of integrated “combi” heaters, just adding a 13 L “Whale” boiler might seem pointless? So which size of boiler would you recommend? And do you know of any manufacturers other than “Whale”, who might make larger, “dual-fuel” LPG-electric boilers?
I am designing a large motorhome (by expedition vehicle standards), in the 9 – 10 m range, about the same length as egn's “Blue Thunder” – see http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/11614-MAN-6x6-camper . Furthermore, I am designing a “fully integrated” expedition motorhome that will resemble an American Class-A or German “Liner" motorhome. It will be a one-room design; the cab will be not be separate from the camper box; and the driving seats will swivel around. It will not look like a UniCat or an ActionMobil. For extended discussion, please see the thread that I began on ExPo titled "Fully Integrated MAN or TATRA 6x6 or 8x8 Expedition RV, w Rigid, Torsion-Free Frame", at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame .
So what size of supplementary boiler would you recommend for such a large, 9 – 10 m vehicle, designed to carry 2 – 4 people?
Also, would you recommend a “calorifier”, as opposed to a boiler? If so, which brands? Alde makes a calorifier, for instance - see http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=126 .
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4. “On-Demand” Hot Water
Just curious: how do you feel about “on demand” hot water? LoRoad mentioned this in the first post in the thread, but it has not been addressed since.
Isn't the whole point to “on demand” hot water that it eliminates the need for a large boiler tank? Or, at the very least, “on demand” allows one to use a much smaller boiler, like the 10 L in the Alde 3010 Combi? See http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=1 , http://www.alde.se/media/106190/compact-3010-us-letter-high-res.pdf , http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_brochure_motorhome.pdf , and http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_cat_21.pdf :
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Alde system is so effective, that even after you've used all the water in the boiler, the shower water still remains hot. In effect, the Alde provides “on demand” hot water. But I am not certain about this.
The Alde puts out 5.5 KW of power with gas, a bit less than the Truma Combi 6 D E or the Webasto Dual Top, which produce 6 KW. But the Alde also puts out 3.2 KW of power when electric, much more than either the Truma or the Webasto. Furthermore, in the Alde gas and electric can be used at the same time, so its maximum potential output is 8.3 KW, which isn't bad….
But the Alde is LPG, not diesel, and who knows what it's altitude capability would be.
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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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Julius0377,
Once again, many thanks for all the feedback!
Your replies have inspired a very long response; hope you won't mind…..
****************************************
1. Diesel versus LPG
It seems we are on the “no gas/lpg” in E[xpedition] V[ehicles]'s deal, and I know of no diesel powered water heaters.
Some participants on ExPo are strongly pro-diesel and anti-LPG, and Earthroamer is famous for completely eliminating LPG – see http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/safety/no-volatile-propane/ , http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/safety/ , and
http://earthroamer.com/employees-facilities/ . I am in the same camp.
It's worth quoting a summary of diesel's advantages from Webasto's website:
Fuel autonomy: Diesel fuel is uniform worldwide and available 24/7, all year long. A very precise monitoring of fuel supplies is possible via the fuel-gauge.
Heating autonomy: Heating while driving is allowed worldwide. By supplying the heater with diesel out of the vehicle fuel tank, there is no need to search for fitting bottle connectors or hassle of exchanging gas bottles in foreign countries.
More space: Gas bottles in motorhome can be reduced as they do last longer anyway and all Webasto heaters can be mounted outside the vehicle. This leads to significantly more space inside the motorhome.
Less weight: In winter, more than 80% of LPG gas is needed only for interior heating. By using diesel operated heaters, the LPG gas bottles can be downsized to one single 5 kg bottle and up to 35 kg of additional load can be gained.
However, I will grant that there are good arguments to be made for a “tri-fuel” set-up, which mixes diesel, gas, and electric. In your second post above you made those arguments, so I won't repeat them here.
It's interesting that on one web-page in particular, Webasto seems to advocate for gas/diesel “hybrid” solutions – see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-...-vehicles/heating-solutions/hybrid-solutions/ .
****************************************
2. Boiler: Isotherm versus Elenga versus Whale? All-Electric or LPG/Electric?
Interesting point about the difficulty of finding diesel-powered water boilers, equivalent to the ones made by Elenga or Isotherm – see http://www.elgena.de/index.php/produkt.html , http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...u=http://www.elgena.de/index.php/produkt.html , http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_34 , http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_34_62 , http://www.isotherm-parts.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_34_57 , and http://www.webasto.com/gb/markets-p...s/boiler-calorifier/isotemp-electric-boilers/ .
Above you wrote:
I do find the 10-12 liters in the combined systems to be on the small size, therefor a complimentary water boiler is good both for redundancy and added capacity.
I am inclined to agree that the 10-12 liter boilers attached to “integrated” heating solutions like the Truma Combi 6 DE, the Alde 3010 Combi, or the Webasto Dual Top, might prove insufficient, and should be supplemented with a dedicated water boiler.
In his original proposal LoRoad specified an Isotherm as well.
Can an Elenga boiler be LPG driven as well? It's hard to determine from the website if any of Elenga's boilers are. Sure, they offer lots of different combinations of electrical power, but LPG does not seem to be an option – see for instance http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...odukt/druckfest/nautic-therm-s.html&sandbox=1 . But if Elenga boilers could be heated by LPG too, and if one has LPG on-board in any case, then perhaps an Elenga boiler would be preferred to an Isotherm?
Webasto sells the “Whale” boiler, which is most definitely dual-fuel, both LPG and electric powered – see http://www.webasto.com/int/markets-...boiler-calorifier/whale-gas-electric-boilers/ , http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/produc...0&Product_ID=21&FriendlyID=Water-Heater-13ltr , http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/Water_heating_brochure.pdf , http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFi...ry/CaravanBrochure2014_reducdedsizeforWeb.pdf . But the “Whale” boiler is only 13 L, in contrast to Isotherm boilers, which are available in sizes from 15 L to 75 L; and Elenga boilers, which are available as small as 3 L and as large as 50 L – see for instance http://translate.googleusercontent....m.html&usg=ALkJrhhhXSmm_Z0y69-k1uR16XSTEXpJbQ .
Given that the whole point to an additional boiler would be to significantly supplement the 10 – 12 L boilers of integrated “combi” heaters, just adding a 13 L “Whale” boiler might seem pointless? So which size of boiler would you recommend? And do you know of any manufacturers other than “Whale”, who might make larger, “dual-fuel” LPG-electric boilers?
I am designing a large motorhome (by expedition vehicle standards), in the 9 – 10 m range, about the same length as egn's “Blue Thunder” – see http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/11614-MAN-6x6-camper . Furthermore, I am designing a “fully integrated” expedition motorhome that will resemble an American Class-A or German “Liner" motorhome. It will be a one-room design; the cab will be not be separate from the camper box; and the driving seats will swivel around. It will not look like a UniCat or an ActionMobil. For extended discussion, please see the thread that I began on ExPo titled "Fully Integrated MAN or TATRA 6x6 or 8x8 Expedition RV, w Rigid, Torsion-Free Frame", at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame .
So what size of supplementary boiler would you recommend for such a large, 9 – 10 m vehicle, designed to carry 2 – 4 people?
Also, would you recommend a “calorifier”, as opposed to a boiler? If so, which brands? Alde makes a calorifier, for instance - see http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=126 .
****************************************
4. “On-Demand” Hot Water
Just curious: how do you feel about “on demand” hot water? LoRoad mentioned this in the first post in the thread, but it has not been addressed since.
Isn't the whole point to “on demand” hot water that it eliminates the need for a large boiler tank? Or, at the very least, “on demand” allows one to use a much smaller boiler, like the 10 L in the Alde 3010 Combi? See http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=1 , http://www.alde.se/media/106190/compact-3010-us-letter-high-res.pdf , http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_brochure_motorhome.pdf , and http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_cat_21.pdf :
“The Alde Compact 3010 boiler has combined water heating that means there is always hot water for the shower and kitchenette. The boiler has a volume of more than 2.2 gallons, which can give 4 gallons of mixed shower water. In the summer, the boiler can be set to only produce hot water by lowering the desired indoor temperature on the control panel.”
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Alde system is so effective, that even after you've used all the water in the boiler, the shower water still remains hot. In effect, the Alde provides “on demand” hot water. But I am not certain about this.
The Alde puts out 5.5 KW of power with gas, a bit less than the Truma Combi 6 D E or the Webasto Dual Top, which produce 6 KW. But the Alde also puts out 3.2 KW of power when electric, much more than either the Truma or the Webasto. Furthermore, in the Alde gas and electric can be used at the same time, so its maximum potential output is 8.3 KW, which isn't bad….
But the Alde is LPG, not diesel, and who knows what it's altitude capability would be.
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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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