toyotech
Expedition Leader
0 degree sleeping bags
Any you recommend that a $$$ friendly ? Mid range quality and price.
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0 degree sleeping bags
We just spent a couple of days at 10,000 feet at the campsite on the side of La Malinche volcano and neither the altitude equipped Eberspacher D2 or the unmodified Webasto Thermo Top 50 had any problems
Please tell me if my updates are getting boring and I'll stop.
Are diesel stoves like Wallas or Webasto as bad at altitude as rumored? Webasto's current offering has a "high" altitude setting but supposedly it's set for 2000m. The Tibetan plateau is 4-5000 m., Altiplano 3500-4000. Can a diesel stove be successfully used at these altitudes? My intuition says no.
Charlie
Sorry, I misunderstood this first and thought you mean the diesel furnace. I leave the text below, because this is also an issue at high altitudes.
I agree with you regarding the stoves.
Diesel furnace:
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I know from people that where at about 3,100 m that they had no problem with the standard Webasto. You can also install a second diesel pump with a second control unit which uses a reduced amount of diesel corresponding to the available oxygen. I haven't looked into this in detail yet, because there are a few years until we will be at this height.
I personally have also thought about a more general solution for being at such a height. I don't know if it works, but in my opinion it can. I want to install a blower to increase the air pressure in the cabin. The cabin is very air tight if every opening is closed. So at night the comfort may be better.
This can be also used to increase the air pressure at the air inlet of the Webasto. This is something like a turbo. This was one of the reasons why I took the 6x6. This Deutz engine has a turbo and the power loss will be not so large at high altitude.
Hmm...this thread is a bit disheartening.
Apologies up front if I missed this in this thread or the Webasto website.
The highest altitude discussed here is 7,000ft ASL.
Not to sound snooty, but that's not hard to achieve in North America or South America on a routine trip through, say, Colorado or Peru.
I looked over the Webasto website and although they briefly discuss the Automatic Altitude Adjustment as being standard, their threshold for 'high altitude' is only 2,000m. 2,000m? That's 'high altitude'....really?
Is there a decent diesel solution for altitudes above 10,000ft / 3,100m ASL?
The Webasto EVO will likely get near 10,000ft. An Espar can be set up with two pumps, with one running very lean. There are installers in the western U.S. who have shops at 6-7000 ft. They would know how to do high altitude.
Espar altitude solutions seems to always reduce fuel flow. I believe the webasto EVO units actually increase combustion fan speed at lower air pressure.
The Espar with the high altitude compensator is good for at least 10K feet. It continuously adjust the pulse of the pump which does reduce fuel to the heater, which does give you less heat out. But most have a bigger heater than needed so reduced output is not a big deal anyway. Stay away from the 2 pump method it just does not work that well.
Webasto use to use more air but I'm not sure if that is still the case, because I have not worked on the lastest model.
IMHO and this is because I work on both, I feel the engineering is much better on the Espar. The Espar is much easier to take apart and repair. However if you don't drastically over size the heater for the space you are trying to heat it will run a long time without issues.
Greg
As was already written, such a [hybrid-electric drivetrain] concept is also ideal for an all-electric household, using only one fuel type in the vehicle. Solar power all over the vehicle with a few kWp can fuel the household, and in emergency the car itself at least for a few km a day.
We never liked the idea of diesel hobs, because they are just not as comfortable as typical house-hold appliances, they do smell, and they don't work at higher altitudes very well. Originally they were built for marine use at height zero, and at heights above 2000 m they don't work very well.
We have a normal electrical hob with Ceran surface and with mechanical switches. Induction saves energy, but adds more sources for failures. We save energy when cooking by using other appliances. I.e. we use the microwave to heat a cup of water, an electrical water kettle for heating larger amounts of water, like for cooking pasta. We use our two-sided contact grill to barbecue meat, fish, vegetables, ......
We have a Webasto Thermo 90 ST diesel heater for both space heating and warm water. For warm water we have a boiler that is heated by a heat exchanger or electrically.
Seems like its getting to be a lot of complexity - at some point a small generator and electric appliances, water heater and space heating would make sense... The cost and complexity of multiple diesel heaters (which all require electricity to operate) is another concern - when will a generator/inverter/battery make more sense...
LoRoad: not sure if you had such extreme high-altitudes in mind, when you first pitched your question about diesel. So hope that the above is consonant with the original intent of the thread.
We've just spent a couple of days at about 9,000 feet in Mexico in our motorhome and had no problems with either of our heating systems.
I have a Webasto Thermo Top 50 which heats water through a Quick BX25 calorifier, and gives a little space heating through 3 small radiators. It has no altitude kit fitted and it worked fine running for a couple of hours each day.
I also have an Eberspacher D2 blown air heater which has the high altitude kit fitted, this also worked fine for several hours each morning, although perhaps a little less effectively than normal.
We have a 550ah 24v battery bank and the impact on the state of charge, even when running both systems all night, is not significant. With 800w of solar on the roof we are always back to 100% by the end of the day if there is some sun.
On very cold days with no direct sun at all, we can get about a week out of our batteries before we get below 50% charge.
The winner for me on using diesel for heating is the quantity of fuel that you can carry with you. We have a 250 litre aux tank for heating and the generator and in 3 months on the road, we still have about half the tank left. That's with a fair amount of cold weather and hot showers every day.
Special plus points of Hydronic M:
- Service life twice as long (6,000 operating hours)
- automatic altitude adjustment of the Hydronic m10 / m12 up to 3,500m.
Heating the inside of the box - Webaso Dual Top (mounts outside under vehicle, dual heat and small water tank (11 liters, hot water from this unit could be used in kitchen exclusively?), unit allows venting to be very easy throughout the cabin. uses diesel.
Secondary/Redundant?
Engine - Webaso Thermo Top - integrates with the engines water circuit and can heat the cab as well, can be operated remotely from w/in the box.
Producing power for a 230 volt heating system from a generator may be an even bigger problem at altitude.
Generally speaking, any internal combustion engine loses efficiency with altitude. Nothing demonstrates this more vividly than motorboats. Water applies such tremendous resistance that a 100MPH boat at sea level will only achieve 85MPH at a mile high…..
Modern engines with electronic fuel injection and ignition mitigate this to a point. But most generators do not have the bells and whistles of an automobile engine. Oxygen sensors, altitude sensors, air temperature sensors, humidity sensors and so much more goes into electronic engine controls.
The typical one-lung genset engine is nothing more than one found on a typical lawn mower. About the only way you could overcome the altitude issue would be with a turbocharger. The cost of that would buy a bigger genset.
The Onan QuietPower Diesel 10,000 watt will derate 3.5% for every 1,000' over 500', and it further derates by 1% for every 10° F increase in temperature over 85° F. A good rule of thumb for most gensets is that you will lose 10% of the rated output every time you gain 3,000' in altitude. This means that a 7,500 watt generator running at 9,000' of altitude will only be capable of producing a bit over 5,000 watts at that altitude.
The Truma diesel heater has a high altitude kit as an option. http://www.truma.com/int/en/heating/diesel-heater-combi-d-6-e.php .
German company Elgena has water boilers like the Isotherm for both pressurized and non pressurized systems. With a lot of different options for energy sources. You get 12/230v, 24/230v, some that you connect inline with the heated air from a webasto as well as 12v, etc. In many sizes. I have no experience with these. http://www.elgena.de/index.php/produkte/druckfeste.html
The [Truma] Saphir Vario aircon together with a kit and a sinus power inverter gives you the option of cooling the camper box using the vehicle alternator while on the move (engine running). Your alternator needs to be dimensioned accordingly but I guess your vehicle should accommodate this. You can also run it off the batteries, but this drains them at a fenomenal speed. http://www.truma.com/int/en/air-conditioning/saphir-vario.php .
Julius0377,
Excellent lead for compact water-boilers. But wouldn't it be better to have a combined system like Alde or Truma, a system that heats water for the shower and kitchen + simultaneously heats water for passive radiator heating?
Julius0377,
From what I've read so far, it seems that even with a roof covered in solar panels and a big battery bank, it is still "challenging" to run A/C off-grid in a very hot climate. Some kind of supplement of solar still seems needed, so having the option of running the A/C off either the vehicle's main engine (via dual alternators), or the diesel generator, would be important.
Julius0377,
So still looking for a combined heater/boiler, similar to the Alde, one that is truly “dual fuel”, and can run on 220 V electricity wihout diesel when the vehicle drives above 11,000 feet.
Looked at the Truma Combi heaters 6 and 6E, which at first seem to be “diesel-electric” – see http://www.truma.com/int/en/heating/overview-diesel-electric-powered-heaters.php . Investigating the Combi 6 and the Combi 6E further, found that yes, both come in diesel-fueled versions, and both seem to combine warm air heating with hot-water heating and a 10 L boiler. So well near perfect, and they seem to be just what you might be looking for, Julius0377, because you prefer forced-air heating systems as against of water-radiator systems – see http://www.truma.com/int/en/heating/diesel-heater-combi-d-6-e.php and http://www.truma.com/int/en/heating/diesel-heater-combi-d-6.php .
But the Truma Combi 6 and 6E are “diesel electric” only in the sense that the fan that drives the warm air, and the motor that drives the water pump, are electric. Unlike the Alde, they cannot work with 240 V electric power alone. And of course they are limited to 2,750 m of altitude, or 9,000 feet.
t
Came across the following interesting build-description, for a van conversion that spent a lot of time in the Andes – see http://dinoevo.de/diesel-coolant-heater-hot-water-tank/ .
So still looking for a combined heater/boiler, similar to the Alde, one that is truly “dual fuel”, and can run on 220 V electricity wihout diesel when the vehicle drives above 11,000 feet.