Unimog vs. ....

[CornDog]

Ok, this may have been beaten to death, but I haven’t seen it anywhere, so I’ll stick my neck out and ask.
Obviously Unimogs are pretty much the ultimate when it comes to off-road capability (short of a tank), but my question is: do you really need it, especially with the increased fuel consumption they bring?
Are there really that many places you can go with a Unimog that you can’t with a “normal” straight axle rig?
Sure, the majority of it comes down to driver ability, but all things being equal, if one want’s to see the world (e.i. Cairo~Capetown, Prudhoe Bay~Tierra De Fuego, etc.) do you really need all the clearance/capability of a Mog, or is it over-kill?

Just fishing for some opinions…

[Metcalf]

This is a very good topic....and a touchy one I'm sure.

To do the trips you mentioned you could most likely do them in anything from a Suzuki samurai to a Unimog to a Kamaz or Tatra. I am good friends with the Uptons. They drove a '66 cj5 with two people from alaska to the tip of south America through the Darien gap. Then they took a boat to south africa and drive all the way to Gamvik, Norway. They aren't short people either, Loren Upton is about 6'3".

http://www.outbackofbeyond.com/world.htm

In my opinion you can do it in just about anything with enough patience and fortitude.

The vehicle you take depends on the level of comfort you want to have on your trip and where you want to go. You can't expect to take something like a large Unicat camper everywhere you can a jeep/rover/toyota. There are places that you might be able to get a large truck that you won't be able to get in a smaller vehicle, i.e. deeply rutted roads, deep mud, deep water, etc. It's a personal choice. Do you want to sleep in a tent, a camper, or hotels most of the time? Do you want a bathroom? What do you want to take with you? How many people do you want to take with you? How long do you want to be self-sufficient? To be honest one of the biggest problems with larger trucks is that you can't fit them in the cities you might want to drive through.

My personal choice, at this time, is a smaller Unimog camper. I am trying to build something that can carry a small to med sized camper box, retain all of the off road capability of the Unimog platform while keeping the overall weight a good deal under the GVW to help with long term durability.

[Robthebrit]

You could write a book on this subject! Its really not fair to compare a domestic truck to a mog, they are entirely different beasts made for different purposes. The gas milage in a diesel mog is not too bad, I get almost 15mpg from the double cab 416 when driving it flat out. The bigger mogs such as the 1300's gets a little less and the newer more powerful turbo diesel mogs may be as low as 10mpg, my camper mog also gets a little less at about 12-13mpg fully loaded. You can carry a rediculous amount of fuel, my camper has nearly 200 gallons with the tanks and the jerry cans, thats well over 2000 miles or about 1800 miles with just the fuel tanks. Just the weight of the fuel is more than most domestic trucks can carry.

Most people who travel in a mog view the off road capability as an insurance policy, when the vehicle is your lifeline you don't want to be operating near its limits or risk breaking it or getting it stuck. On the other hand, there is no point in using a mog and then sacrificing its offroad ability, there are much better trucks available if you are going to do that. The fuso seems to be a common choice, its faster,quieter, has creature comforts such as AC and probably a little better gas milage. In general I don't think most people would be willing to travel in a mog for thousands of miles, it takes a special breed to drive everywhere at mog speed - 55-60 on the flats and as low as 30 on a good hill. In addition mogs are high maintainence machines, you do have to keep up on the basic stuff such as oil changes (and there is a lot of oil) and lubing.

In return you get a truck that can drive fully loaded over the worst roads in the world for 250,000 miles and barely notice. 45 degree hills, 3+ feet of water or pot holes and rocks 18 inches across can be driven over without a huge amount of skill. Technical driving is fun but when you do it on purpose but it gets tedious quickly. When you are in the middle of nowhere you can't do all the driving, my wife doesn't like the technical stuff but she is happy to point the mog in the correct direction and drive over whatever is in the way. I relax much better when she is driving because I know the truck will deal with most things - you have to be careful to not confuse the mogs ability as your own ability! Having to use technical driving skills for 100 miles of bad road would quickly wear thin.

Travel mogs are typically not mechaniclly modified, you would be a fool to mess with one. You have to think of a mog as a complete system, many people have put V8's in a 404 to get more power only to break the drive train. People put mog axles under jeeps and break them and then say the axles are crap but you never hear of a mog breaking its own axles even though the mog is 2x heavier - its all about the complete system. Fully locking diffs are great but they don't make any sense if a single half shaft can't handle the forces when its driving the only wheel with traction, the truck is fully loaded and the terrain is nasty. This is why a lot of US trucks break because they are not designed as a full system. Most US trucks need heavy mods as soon as they leave the factory do even do what the commercials show them doing, just look at the mods on this forum.

To answer your original question, if you are staying somewhat local and you have a trail ready truck you will get pretty much anywhere a mog will get, in fact in wooded areas you may do better due to being smaller. Look no further than the people on this forum they have been all over the place in domestic trucks.

My mogs are always available for people to test drive, on road or off road.

Rob

[Scott Brady]

Many years ago I evaluated and put together a series of categories for evaluating an expedition platform. The Unimog has been number one every time I compare to anything else available.

CAPACITY:
The ability to carry weight in the vehicle. This is measured by payload statistics.

DURABILITY:
The ability of the vehicle to travel rugged terrain, fully loaded without chassis or drivetrain failure with years of continual use.

RELIABILITY:
The ability of a vehicle to perform over long distances and after years of service in rugged terrain without engine, electrical and support system failure due to component malfunction.

CAPABILITY:
The ability of the vehicle to traverse rocky, muddy, crossed axle terrain including deep water crossings, severe side slopes, hill climbs and descents.

Common criticisms of the Unimog are road speeds and driving cabin comfort, both of which I feel are mute. Once you leave Europe or the US, roads speeds are irrelevant, and why the hurry? Cabin comfort can be addressed with nice seats and liners, etc.

The downsides are size in small villages, etc., age of most examples available in the US and repair costs.

If I traveled just for personal experience (no business attached), I would use a Unimog. It fits my personality, performance expectations and needs perfectly.

[Blair G]

I am glad you can type fast....makes it much easier for me. One one other thing regarding mileage is that the 13 mpg that I get with the 1300 is on the freeway doing 60 mph. I have never calculated what the MPG would be at offroad speed. I would have to think it exceeds most vehicles that size (or smaller) carrying a decent amount of weight. Plus they are damn cool!

Blair

http://i.pbase.com/v3/11/30811/1/51248583.DSCF0719.jpg

Need I say more?

[Robthebrit]

Off topic: Is this from the trip when I was in front of you and you burst the tire? Did your finger heal?

Rob

[Blair G]

Off topic: Is this from the trip when I was in front of you and you burst the tire? Did your finger heal?

Rob

That was the trip. Nail is back and doing well.

Rob's 416:

http://k53.pbase.com/v3/11/30811/1/51248580.DSCF0718.jpg

[haven]

The Unimog is a good choice when the road is at its worst. The
problem is that 99% of the time, the road is not bad enough to require
a 'Mog to traverse. So you have to put up with the 'Mog's shortcomings
for that one time when lesser vehicles get stuck.

There are lots of vehicle choices if you keep your weight to less than
10,000 lbs. or if you tow a camping trailer.

Unfortunately, even 'Mogs get stuck sometimes. Here is Stephen Stewart's
camper being pulled out of the mud in Kyrgyzstan by a ZiL 6x6.

http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/siberia2004/graphics/dcq_4704c.jpg

The mud here doesn't look bad, but Stephen was up to the axles a few
meters outside the photo frame.

A muddy road is made almost impassable when trucks with extra-tall
tires cut channels in the mud.

http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/siberia2004/graphics/dcq_4720c.jpg

This particular road is the absolute worst because there are no trees
or large rocks to use as anchor points for self-recovery.

[CornDog]

The Unimog is a good choice when the road is at its worst. The problem is that 99% of the time, the road is not bad enough to require
a 'Mog to traverse. So you have to put up with the 'Mog's shortcomings
for that one time when lesser vehicles get stuck.


I suppose this is what I was driving at. You stated it perfectly. It really does seem that 99% (well, ok, 95%) of "roads" here and in the rest of the world, really don't require what a mog is capable of; when one could just as easily roll over it with a Fuso, Hino, or other similar (albeit modded) vehicle.

I would agree with the point that technical driving over 100 miles would be tedious, but how often is that really necessary? And, does it warrant something a serious as a Unimog?

thanks for all the input!

[Scott Brady]

Unless part of your goal is to find the most remote and unpredictable roads for a given route :)

That is usually mine...

That technical terrain durability also provides increased performance in other areas, like mudslides, washouts, etc. It also means that all of the vehicles components are designed for severe service and should last/not fail in typical travel environments. I like the idea of having that durability and capability always available. Just my opinion though.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I've driven a couple of mostly 416 diesel models... They are really a big 4WD "TRUCK" being the key word.. The big think IMO is do you need a "truck" (in the traditional sense) versus a SUV or pickup or something more typically passenger vehicle?

If you need a truck don't then it is the best application. If not then it may be a drawback... Like any truck, they weigh a lot more (literally 6-8K lbs. more I think) and are much larger cab size etc.

That said they sure are cool. For me, even USA or not, the 50 mph top speed of the standard models is a big killer.. Even elsewhere in the world, 50 mph would really wear me down.. I drove a 416 standard cab French Troop carrier for a week when I was doing my spring over (I worked for a shop at the time that had a few for sale) and it was great but sure was slow.. Even the (normal) 20 minute commute was a doozie... ..and a little expensive versus my 22 mpg HJ60 at the time...

They also are very loud inside but I think that can be cured with some work. I had to wear earplugs in the 416 Doka otherwise would be deaf the rest of the day. I put several hundred miles in one, one very slow trip to Moab included... The 406/416 models at least were a lot like a big 4WD tractor in truck form.. You can cure this with the fast gears and noiseproofing though... But the gears and replacement parts in general are not cheap and easy to find...

[Robthebrit]

Going slow doesn't bother me at all, being high and going slow lets you take time to look around. My 416 does 60 on the flats if you push it, I could probably get it up to 65 if I tweaked the pump a little more - don't forget the speed limit is 55 for trucks, doing 60 easily keeps up with the semis. The camper has fast axles so will do 65 with small tires, with bigger tires and the pump tweaked you are looking at low 70's which faster than I want to go in a mog. If you are going to buy a mog get one that has the axles you want, its not hard to find truck with fast axles, an overdrive or both. Blair's 1300 has the overdrive and cruises at 60 without messing with anything, you can get mid 80's 1300's with overdrive, fast axles, high output engines (OM366LA, 250hp) and they will cruise at 70 going up hill, you can get air con if you really need it.

Noise (and heat) can be a problem, the funny thing is the standard red line of 2800rpm is about when the engine is most noisey. My engine really smoothes out 3100rpm and with all the insulation work I did you can easily talk over it, listen to the radio or talk on the phone. You can get them as quiet as an old Dodge. This is especially true with the square cabs because you are not sitting on the engine.

Comfort is not a problem, you can get air ride seats which are awesome. I put Mercedes car seats in the 416 which are also really comfortable. I have done thousands of miles in a mog and really enjoy it.

Like I said in my first post, each to their own, they are not for everybody.

Rob

[Colorado Ron]

Ok--Ill jump in on this one.

Scott, Id really like to see you opinion(using your catagories) and stats comparing the Mog to a Pinzgauer.

I went back and forth on this for over a year. It came down to a couple of items for me. Mostly PRICE!!! You get what you pay for for sure, but the price on some mogs is crazy. In order to haul 7 people(which I needed) you have to get a crew cab. The 1300s that are crew cabs can go for $60k plus. The asking price on this one I believe is $85k:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/243/447806505_b3341648ea.jpg

I can buy alot of Pinz for that kind of money.

Being the biggest and the baddest is a double edge sword. Changing a tire on one of those would beat me down good.:xxrotflma

This pic is a good example of where Im going with this:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/447806483_9be84fd2f9.jpg

Now I could find any farmer with a pickup to pull my pinz out. But reverse the role. How hard would it be to find someone to pull the mog out. I know your suppose to be able to self recover. I agree with that. But Ive seen digging on a mog that took 2 days to get it out. The only thing that can usually pull a mog out of a jam is another mog or equivlant.

The pinz can be parked anywhere and can fit down all city roads. The down fall IMO is the lack of diesel. That was the biggest hold up for me. But my pinz is designed, with its new fuel system, to hold 60 gallons of fuel and 20 gallons in cans. 80 gallons @ 17mpg is 1360 mile range. Thats VERY good for a vehicle this size.

As far as parts availability, its a common air cooled design. Anyone can work on it. Most other countries are familiar with Air Cooled VWs, which is a very similar design if you cant work on it yourself.

I must say that I really think Pinzgauers are really underated. More info here:http://www.offroad-adventure-travel.com/Pinzgauer-about.html

Heres a few pics of some nicely equipped ones that I think can handle their own:
http://picasaweb.google.com/pinzgauer.depository.1/PinzCampers

http://www.offroad-adventure-travel.com/images/EX-Pinz-29.jpg

[Joaquin Suave]

I'm going to add my $.02 here

The REAL sad thing here in North America is the the lack of mediun heavy duty 4x4's. In just about any part of the world other than here, your choices of large "allrad" trucks is huge. Its no surprise that the debate in the US is between a Unimog and a truck like Casa Azul ( domestic with 4x4 conversion ) or a much smaller GVW Japaneeze cab-forward. Because...We have no other choices. And...Lets face it! The mog blows the domestic and asian competition out of the water!
But in the EC it seems that Mogs are not the #1 truck of choice for the "allrad WoMo" set. Look at Unicat, Actionmobil, and any of the smaller builders and it becomes apparent that MAN's and commercial 4x4 trucks like my new Benz are prefered for their load capacity and road worthiness (speed and luxury) as opposed to the Mogs off-road worthiness.

When looking at any vehicle that you plan to go world exploring with, one has to look at parts availability! I doubt that I'll get any arguement that...Mercedes is in a league of their own! NO ONE holds a candle to them!

Hey Blair! I see that you have removed the "for sale" sign on the 1300 in your posts. GOOD MAN, I knew you'd come to your senses!

[CornDog]

Going slow...they are not for everybody.

Rob

I'd be the last one to agrue against the merits of a Mog, and that's certianly not what I wanted to do in asking this question. Sure, it's an awesome vehicle that really does blow everything else domestic away.

Metcalf said it well, this is a touchy subject.

I'm just wondering if that 1% of roads that really takes a unimog to traverse justifies the capabilities.

[Robthebrit]

Corndog,

Only you can answer that for yourself, all of us are going to see it differently, when you are on that 1% of roads you'll wish you had a mog when you are in death valley in summer that air con starts sounding nice. Like Joaquin said in the US a mog may be your only option regardless whether you need it for payload, offroad capability or any other reason. In Europe there are lots of options, with the Russian and eastern European market opening up there are more choices than ever, pretty much every truck company has an equivalent/competitor to the mog (if you have $80k a new U500 is a really nice middle ground between traditional mog and truck).


Ron,

Getting a mog stuck is kinda scary. I have seen 3 big mogs struggle to pull a fairly lightweight 404 from deep mud. If you get stuck in the middle of nowhere you are going to be looking for a dozer or very large tractor - forget winching!

Rob

[Blair G]

I'd be the last one to agrue against the merits of a Mog, and that's certianly not what I wanted to do in asking this question. Sure, it's an awesome vehicle that really does blow everything else domestic away.

Metcalf said it well, this is a touchy subject.

I'm just wondering if that 1% of roads that really takes a unimog to traverse justifies the capabilities.

I think you are focusing on the 1% of the roads that the Unimog will beat all others. What you should be looking at is the ability of the Unimog to handle all other roads as well. My 1300 is pressed into more mundane chores every week. Lately it has been helping me move, carrying fence posts, and making beer runs.
The 1300 came from the factory with a lot less creature comforts due to the fact is was for the military. They really don't care about the things that people who use them for fun care about. Like Rob stated, with a little work you can bring the trucks up to an acceptable level of comfort. I think for those people who have a Unimog the "short comings" are easily overcome and the level of service they provide far exceeds anything out there.
Jack mentioned it in his post of the lack of mid size fwd trucks in the USA. If the MAN DOKA was available in the states I would have one as a camper base. With that in mind, what other truck out there in the US is as capable overall as the Unimog?
It really isn't a touchy subject at all. For those of us who have them we understand why we have them.
I have a feeling that if we based the type of vehicle we drive, by the type of roads we drive on 99% of the time, you would drive a Honda Civic. What fun would that be?

[Scott Brady]

Ron,

In the technical terrain (rocks, crossed axle, etc.), a Mog has a big advantage from my experience. In reality, you are paying for extreme terrain performance and durability with the mog. If you don't need that much, then the Pinz is awesome and much more manageable.

I have talked with guys that sell and work on both and nearly all recommend the Pinz for livability (repairs, service, parts, etc.)

Like anything else, it all comes down to a balance between your needs and your resources.

[Colorado Ron]

Scott,

Thats good to hear. I was starting to second guess myself. Mogs can climb things I couldnt even attempt in the Pinz, thats for sure. But I can get more places than most mogs can fit. Its for sure a trade off.

[Ron B]

I love mogs and will hopefully someday have one (if I'm lucky!), but for now I'm very happy with my truck's over-all road manners as well as it's abilities offroad. I've never seen a mog in action in person, and would love to ride in one.

So, enough of this my dick is bigger than your dick stuff...let's go wheeling!

RB

[Robthebrit]

Ron, get your *** around my house, I live down the street from you.

And yeah it is bigger, my truck that is :ylsmoke:

Rob

[Ron B]

He he.

I'm on the road to Moab right now, be back in a week. I couldn't even bring my truck...bummer! I'm getting some suspension mods done and it wasn't completed in time...took longer than I thought.

I'll get in touch when I'm back so we can go break our trucks!

rb

[Blair G]

So, enough of this my dick is bigger than your dick stuff...let's go wheeling!

RB
Damn, I thought we were talking about Unimogs! Next time I will attach the appropriate picture. Rob, you are on your own on this one. All I have are pictures of your Unimog.

[blupaddler]

So, I have been thinking...
And have come up with a couple of questions...


1. Do unimogs come with AC? Or would I be better off getting one of those roof mounted units for the AC?
2. Is the bed length a certain length? With regards to the 1300, etc.(I know Blair uses an Alaskan camper on his sometimes) And how short is the bed on the 416 Dokas?
3. Is there somewhere I can find a "beginners" guide to unimogs? Something that explains the differences between all the models? Stuff to beware of, etc, etc?
4. This one is more towards Rob. How tall, height, are most expedition campers?
5. What is a good first timers unimog? Is it worth it to wait for a double cab, doka right?


Thanks.

[Robthebrit]

A) No mogs come with AC, its always an option but the new U500's pretty much always have it. Its a factory option and available aftermarket on all the square cab SBU mogs (the ones that look like 1300's). For the older cabs like mine you have to fab your own from components from somewhere like vintage air. I have 99% of the parts that were originally for my doka but it may end up in the camper simply becausre it has a spare puilley because there is no aux air compressor on the camper, therefore there is also a spot for the AC compressor. My Doka has pretty much every engine driven option and getting the AC compressor in there is going to be a challenge.

B) The length of the bed depends on the exact model, 416's have a couple of different frame lengths such as the 416.141 and 416.115, the 115's bed is about 2 foot longer but the wheelbase is the same. There is also a fairly rare long wheelbase 416 which has a longer bed. All of the above are available with single or double cabs. The length of a 416 bed varies from 5 to 10 feet. The 1300 bed is something like 10 feet longx7 feet wide, the 1300 is one of the baby's in the SBU series, the biggst mogs have nearly 20 feet of bed.

C) Let me search around for some sites

edit:

http://www.rockymountainmoggers.com
http://www.unimogwherehaus.com/index.html (model info in the truck section)
http://www.west-4x4.demon.co.uk

D) My camper was designed to be under 10 foot so it can fit in a container but it ended up being 10 foot 2. I can easily drop 2 inches by letting the tires down, taking off the wheels and standing it on the rotors gains a foot or so. The 1300 type campers are much bigger than mine, I am guessing most fixed back 1300 type campers are more like 11 feet or more (same goes if they are built on a 1550 or 1750 chassis)

E) A first timer mog is a tough call, it really depends on what you want to do with it. I you want to crawl rocks, want cheap parts, want to tow it to the trail then a gas 404 may be the way to go. If you want to travel long distance then a diesel may be the way to go. If you want to carry passengers then a doka is the way but they come at a premium especially if they have fast axles, parts for all diesel mogs are expensive (fast is a relative term).

Rob

[dan chain]

follow the link for some pics of a pinz fitting thru some tight obstacles. This was the first offroad trip I had taken in it and we were trying to find out how far over you can tip it (i later found out that it is 43.5 degrees side angle) we were only at 30% at the most. http://www.4x4him.org/4x4him/index.php?topic=721.0 The person I bought this pinz from originally had a mog and did not like it so he bought this pinz that i now own and he later traded his mog for a 6x6 pinz. many mog owners I have talked to sell there mogs for a pinz. I havn't owned a mog myself so I can't really comment on them to much.

[Ron B]

Rob - check your pm box

Ron B

[Grim Reaper]

Scott,

Thats good to hear. I was starting to second guess myself. Mogs can climb things I couldnt even attempt in the Pinz, thats for sure. But I can get more places than most mogs can fit. Its for sure a trade off.


I don't know about that. Before My buddy sold his Pinz he took us for a ride and went up a hill that had me holding on to the cab wire rack with one hand and my 5 year old with the other to keep from flying out the back. My but was off the seat. One foot bracing off the opposite side.

My Wife was sitting across from me with this shear look of terror holding on for dear life thinking our kid is about to fly out. We were warned to hold on before the climb so I was expecting it but I don't think my wife actually looked to see the hill like I did and it caught her off guard.

My kid was screaming for all she was worth. When it was done her comment. CAN WE DO THAT AGAIN!

Climbing They can do NO problem. :punk03:

Now on the other hand that same Pinz has been on its side 4 times that I am aware of. :yikes:

Meet My buddy Jeff.
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5210&d=1168484004

[calamaridog]

I have a feeling that if we based the type of vehicle we drive, by the type of roads we drive on 99% of the time, you would drive a Honda Civic. What fun would that be?

How true, this statement!

[Colorado Ron]

I don't know about that. Before My buddy sold his Pinz he took us for a ride and went up a hill that had me holding on to the cab wire rack with one hand and my 5 year old with the other to keep from flying out the back. My but was off the seat. One foot bracing off the opposite side.

My Wife was sitting across from me with this shear look of terror holding on for dear life thinking our kid is about to fly out. We were warned to hold on before the climb so I was expecting it but I don't think my wife actually looked to see the hill like I did and it caught her off guard.

My kid was screaming for all she was worth. When it was done her comment. CAN WE DO THAT AGAIN!

Climbing They can do NO problem. :punk03:

Now on the other hand that same Pinz has been on its side 4 times that I am aware of. :yikes:

Meet My buddy Jeff.
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5210&d=1168484004


Oh I agree. Hill climbing, my pinz is near unstoppable. I was more referring to huge boulders that the mogs seem to climb over. They climb over boulders that are bigger than my pinz!lol

[mk216v]

So, I have been thinking...
And have come up with a couple of questions...


1. Do unimogs come with AC? Or would I be better off getting one of those roof mounted units for the AC?
2. Is the bed length a certain length? With regards to the 1300, etc.(I know Blair uses an Alaskan camper on his sometimes) And how short is the bed on the 416 Dokas?
3. Is there somewhere I can find a "beginners" guide to unimogs? Something that explains the differences between all the models? Stuff to beware of, etc, etc?
4. This one is more towards Rob. How tall, height, are most expedition campers?
5. What is a good first timers unimog? Is it worth it to wait for a double cab, doka right?


Thanks.

Hi Robb,

I've found George Bull's Unimog Centre site to be the most helpful of any 'Mog site so far;

www.unimogcentre.com/unimogabout.html

HTH,
Jeremy

[Ron B]

that's a great site!

Rob...are you out there? Haven't heard back. PM me if you want to wheel sometime.

rb

[MogPinz]

don't forget the Pinzgauer. it fits in the city. the 712 is a 1.5 ton truck.:)

[4Rescue]

I'm thinking an HJ75 Toupue with a "Tired-Iron Esque" Volvo Portal Jobby would be about the best most treliable Overland vehicle on the planet. Slap on some 38's and you're looking at un-matched Toyota reliability adn all the clearence adn off-road ability of a Mog.

That said, having been an Engine Boss on a Mog Wild land Fire crew, I can attest to the great deal of advantages a Mog has in the really bad stuff. I loved being able to get a hose truck into the nastiest of nasty and back, and the visibility is awsome to boot. Mogs truly are something else. I dunno if I'd want to drive one over say 2000 miles. When we deploy, we often have to drive 5-10 hours to get to the fires, and it starts to wear on us. Me being the Engine boss and consumate 4x4 afficianado I am can't resist driving, but it becomes a chore. These are big heavy trucks with not alot of power (and this from a Guy who's daily driver is a 22RE powered truck...), but boy do we get the looks/waves out on the road.

If I needed something big that I was going to build a mobile living quarters on, I would look at a Mog. For most everything I do, A Toyota of some sort is far and away a better choice for me. Ultimate relaibility and plenty of ability.

Cheers and No Worries

Dave

[4Rescue]

don't forget the Pinzgauer. it fits in the city. the 712 is a 1.5 ton truck.:)I had no idea a Pinz was a 1.5ton!!!! I love Pinz's. Don't see nearly enough of them tho.

[charlieaarons]

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare a Troopy to a Mog. A Troopy is a "camp-beside" rig (or on top of with a roof tent); a Mog is a "camp-inside" rig with a camper which it is fully capable of carrying. And as far as Toyota reliability, you diminish that with a one-off drivetrain conversion that you can't get parts and service for. If I were to buy a Troopy for expedition travel I'd leave it stock.
As far as drivability of a Mog, I drive my North American U500 at 60 but it's capable of 70. It is relatively quiet, and comfortable; we listen to music on the CD player. I drove it from Lake Tahoe to Anchorage in 8 very comfortable days, camping every night.
A somewhat older SBU Mog can be made to go fast with the right size tires and a Claas overdrive, but it's noisier. You can always add noise insulation and fancy seats. Older Mogs yet: 416, 406, 404 - forget going fast.

Charlie

[Robthebrit]

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare a Troopy to a Mog. A Troopy is a "camp-beside" rig (or on top of with a roof tent); a Mog is a "camp-inside" rig with a camper which it is fully capable of carrying. And as far as Toyota reliability, you diminish that with a one-off drivetrain conversion that you can't get parts and service for. If I were to buy a Troopy for expedition travel I'd leave it stock.
As far as drivability of a Mog, I drive my North American U500 at 60 but it's capable of 70. It is relatively quiet, and comfortable; we listen to music on the CD player. I drove it from Lake Tahoe to Anchorage in 8 very comfortable days, camping every night.
A somewhat older SBU Mog can be made to go fast with the right size tires and a Claas overdrive, but it's noisier. You can always add noise insulation and fancy seats. Older Mogs yet: 416, 406, 404 - forget going fast.

Charlie

My 416 camper does 70, it won't do it up big hills. How is the U500 on big hills? Can you still do 60-70 fully loaded?

[charlieaarons]

Sorry Rob - I was wrong. Forget going fast in a 404??
Anyways, it depends how steep the hill. On an 9% grade I drop down to 6th, 35 mph. 7-8% 7th gear, 35-50 mph. 4.5% or less I can stay in 8th at 50-70 mph. But I normally drive at 60, not 70 for several reasons: it's a huge heavy truck, 70 still scares me; fuel economy; tire heat. In Alaska most steep hilly terrain is curvey and so absolute speed is limited. Drivng thru Nevada on I-80 from Reno to near Elko I dropped to 6th (35) a couple of times on long upgrades, mostly 7th (50) and 8th (60).
Going downhill I love the exhaust brake; it's quiet and will greatly prolong brake life.

Charlie

[4Rescue]

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare a Troopy to a Mog. A Troopy is a "camp-beside" rig (or on top of with a roof tent); a Mog is a "camp-inside" rig with a camper which it is fully capable of carrying. And as far as Toyota reliability, you diminish that with a one-off drivetrain conversion that you can't get parts and service for. If I were to buy a Troopy for expedition travel I'd leave it stock.
As far as drivability of a Mog, I drive my North American U500 at 60 but it's capable of 70. It is relatively quiet, and comfortable; we listen to music on the CD player. I drove it from Lake Tahoe to Anchorage in 8 very comfortable days, camping every night.
A somewhat older SBU Mog can be made to go fast with the right size tires and a Claas overdrive, but it's noisier. You can always add noise insulation and fancy seats. Older Mogs yet: 416, 406, 404 - forget going fast.

Charlie
Your mog sounds great...

All I was really aluding to is that anywhere on the globe, for the most part I think you'd be ahead to have a 70 series LC. WEveryone outside of N. America knows how to work on tha=em and even better it's very unlikely you'd need to have it workrd on.

You're spot on about the apples and orange thing, like I said, if I had the money and was looking to build a stand alone/houseish rig, I wouldn't look at much other than a mog. For me personaly though, an Ezi-Awn and some well engineered storage can go a long way to feeling like home to me.

Make no mistake fella's, I love Mogs, doesn't everyone?

Cheers

Dave

[Robthebrit]

Charlie: yes the 404 (gas engine) is the one that doesn't like to go fast and has tranny overheating problems on the freeway. The older diesel mogs are typically slow by modern standards, 70mph is very rare as you need fast axles and hubs. What do you mean a quiet exhaust brake? My sounds like they should sound! I stay at around 50-60mph for the same reasons, I keep up with the big trucks. I have a tire which has a flat spot and I get a bad wobble at about 61 through 63 mph. I need all new tires so I'm not worried about it.

Rescue: Mogs are widely available in pretty much every country other than the US. Mercedes global parts distribution is second to none, Toyota doesn't even come close. MBUK will overnight parts all over the planet and you can even send them back if they are wrong or if you don't need them. Until I moved to the US I thought of Mercedes as a truck and bus company that also made cars, in the UK you see more Mercedes trucks than cars. Its only the US where Mercedes doesn't want anything to do with the big stuff.

The OM352 Industrial engine used in the older diesel mogs is probably the most servicable engine on the planet. It is used worldwide (including the US) in generators, compressors, snow blowers, canes, buses, boats, trucks and pretty much everything else than needs power. The U500 uses a modern derivative of this engne and is generally equally servicable but it does have electronics.

Rob

[charlieaarons]

My exhaust brake has two stages: a flapper in the exhaust and and a Jake brake type setup in the head opening a small exhaust valve during the compression stroke. But unlike a Jake it's quiet.

Charlie

[Robthebrit]

Mine is just the flapper in the exhaust, makes a hell of a noise and when I let it go all the crap that has been building up in the exhaust comes out - all at once.

Rob

[4Rescue]

Rescue: Mogs are widely available in pretty much every country other than the US. Mercedes global parts distribution is second to none, Toyota doesn't even come close. MBUK will overnight parts all over the planet and you can even send them back if they are wrong or if you don't need them. Until I moved to the US I thought of Mercedes as a truck and bus company that also made cars, in the UK you see more Mercedes trucks than cars. Its only the US where Mercedes doesn't want anything to do with the big stuff.

The OM352 Industrial engine used in the older diesel mogs is probably the most servicable engine on the planet. It is used worldwide (including the US) in generators, compressors, snow blowers, canes, buses, boats, trucks and pretty much everything else than needs power. The U500 uses a modern derivative of this engne and is generally equally servicable but it does have electronics.

Rob

I did not know that. I've been a few places on the globe and I'm aware of the MB Big trucks being everywhere, same with Volvo.

[Gold Boy]

one of the big advantages with the mog and the pinz are the portal axles. but for approximately 15g i can have a custom portals installed on my land cruiser. my piont being is that it is possible to have the advantages of portal axles with out the disadvantages of a uncommon pinz or mog.

:drool:

[Robthebrit]

You can fix a mog in most countries easier then you can fix a Toyota, every country on the planet has big trucks and diesel mechanics and the OM352 is probably the most serivable engine ever made. Toyota doesn't even come close to MB for worldwide truck parts availability.

I don't understand why you would pay 15k to make your vehicle much less reliable, do you really need portal axles when on expedition? The mogs capablity does not just come from its portals, its a complete system and I doubt your land crusiser would be as capable as a mog even with the portals.

Putting mog portals on other trucks is the easiest way to break expensive parts. The mog parts are not made for high power or high speed this is especially true for 404 parts. Unfortuntely 404 parts are typically used because diesel mog axles are too expensive and way too heavy. A pair of 416 or 1300 axles which are about the smallest diesel axles you can easily find and they weigh significantly more than a land cruisers load capacity, just because they are under your truck does not mean they don't add to your gross weight. Putting them on such a vehicle along with 300 pound wheels will literally tear your frame apart after a few days on washboard. Running over washboard with something like a ton and half of unsprung weight requires some careful design.

A mog is a complete system, has lots of load capacity, handles its weight very well and is very reliable. The flexible frame, 3 point mounts for everything (including the engine), portals, lockers, coil springs, torque tubes, gearing all play a huge role.

Rob

[Gold Boy]

Toyota doesn't even come close to MB for worldwide truck parts availability.

are you sure?
if yes.... toyota still has great global coverage.

I don't understand why you would pay 15k to make your vehicle much less reliable, do you really need portal axles when on expedition? The mogs capablity does not just come from its portals, its a complete system and I doubt your land crusiser would be as capable as a mog even with the portals.

i'm just saying they are an option

Putting mog portals on other trucks is the easiest way to break expensive parts.

was not thinking of mog portal axles, but yes they would be a poor combo. i was thinking more along the lines portal-tek portal axles, don't see how you would break expensive parts with a correct install.

A mog is a complete system, has lots of load capacity, handles its weight very well and is very reliable. The flexible frame, 3 point mounts for everything (including the engine), portals, lockers, coil springs, torque tubes, gearing all play a huge role.

true, mogs are awesome, who could debate against that?
all in all i think a diesel tlc with portal axles, lockers, would make an awesome expedition vehicle.



imho :cow:

[charlieaarons]

If you define an expedition vehicle as something to go camping over the weekend on some bad roads or offroad, then maybe you're right.
I define an expedition vehicle as something to travel thousands of miles from home, over international borders, potentially on bad roads but not necessarily the greatest offroad challenges, since you are so far from home and help.
You want maximum reliability. If something breaks you want the nearest dealer (hopefully in the same country!) to have it or be able to quickly order it, in this age of Fedex/DHL and computers.
A vehicle with completely custom suspension, axles and maybe even a modified drivetrain does not satisfy these criteria.
One of the best small vehicles that is capable stock is the diesel Landcruiser, preferably the 78 series or 105 series. It comes with a great drivetrain, strong axles with lockers, decent but not great suspension etc.
Large vehicle: Unimog.
My opinion - if you really want to travel in a vehicle buy one that is capable with the least modifications. Believe me, I've been there, done that.

Charlie

[Gold Boy]

If you define an expedition vehicle as something to go camping over the weekend on some bad roads or offroad, then maybe you're right.
I define an expedition vehicle as something to travel thousands of miles from home, over international borders, potentially on bad roads but not necessarily the greatest offroad challenges, since you are so far from home and help.
You want maximum reliability. If something breaks you want the nearest dealer (hopefully in the same country!) to have it or be able to quickly order it, in this age of Fedex/DHL and computers.
A vehicle with completely custom suspension, axles and maybe even a modified drivetrain does not satisfy these criteria.
One of the best small vehicles that is capable stock is the diesel Landcruiser, preferably the 78 series or 105 series. It comes with a great drivetrain, strong axles with lockers, decent but not great suspension etc.
Large vehicle: Unimog.
My opinion - if you really want to travel in a vehicle buy one that is capable with the least modifications. Believe me, I've been there, done that.

Charlie

true, cool replie... :cow:

:26_7_2:

[bluemog]

Everyone throughout this thread has been saying how BIG a Unimog is. My 416 is actually no larger than an extended cab Super Duty- in length as well as width. The truck fits in a standard sized parking spaces with no problem at all! The best part of parking it in a standard parking space is that I don't have to worry about door dings from the a$$h@l& that parks too close to me- just have to worry about denting his roof when I open my door. If a Super Duty isn't too big for an expedition vehicle why is a Unimog?

Unimog's are pretty easy to work on as well. With a limited amount of tools you can field strip and rebuild a Unimog. Mercedes designed it that way so that they could be maintained in the field. Parts are widely available. My truck is a 1976 and I can still find new parts and have them FedEx'd next day. If you are outside of the US and need help working on a Unimog you should be able to get it because Mercedes trucks are so prevalent in other countries. The older Unimogs are not much different than the round noses which I see everywhere. There's also a great network of Unimog owners around the World who are always happy to lend a sympathetic ear if not a hand or tools wherever you find yourself. Of course, if your Unimog is properly maintained there shouldn't be that much risk in it breaking down on a trip.

Older Unimogs aren't that expensive either. If you look hard you can find a good diesel one for $20-40k. While you might be able to buy a Super Duty for less you can't go as many places. Some people have said that on an expedition you don't want to go that far off road. I'd hate to drive all the way some place far away only to hear about the great little cove or beach that was just a short way down a trail that was a liitle too tough for my rig.

I will grant you that Unimogs can be slow and loud- too slow for freeways sometimes. Truth is when I plan a trip I look for alternate routes so I don't slow traffic down and I can get more to look at than the endless ribbon of concrete in front of me on the Interstate. Every time I go driving in my truck, whether it's down the street or across state lines, I always put in ear plugs. One of these days I'm going to buy a noise cancelling aviation headset.

When my truck was being restored we did a lot of custom work which included lengthening the frame and building a stronger than normal suspension frame for the bed and tool boxes to float on above the twisting frame. In the back of my mind I always envisioned converting the truck to an expedition rig. That's why it only takes undoing four bolts to get the bed off and four more to take all three toolboxes off at once. Originally I thought about using an old truck box for a camper. Then I thought about finding an old Alaskan to use. After reading Carlisle's post I'm beginning to think about having a custom Alaskan built.

The guy who restored my truck also does customized interiors with all the creature comforts like suspension seats, electric windows, DVD players, and more. Some of them were nicer than a Super Duty Lariat. Almost anything's possible. I wanted to be able to hose my cab out so I left mine just painted metal with washable seats. In the end you have to do what's right for you.

Can a Unimog make a good expedition vehicle? I think so.

[Squob]

But in the EC it seems that Mogs are not the #1 truck of choice for the "allrad WoMo" set. Look at Unicat, Actionmobil, and any of the smaller builders and it becomes apparent that MAN's and commercial 4x4 trucks like my new Benz are prefered for their load capacity and road worthiness (speed and luxury) as opposed to the Mogs off-road worthiness.

Action Mobil uses MAN trucks, which are extremely tough and have pretty wide parts availability. These EVs are also popular as support vehicles for rallies such as the Dakar, and they can get up a fair head of speed if the engines are big enough! Action Mobil's new Globecruiser 2008 has 520hp from a 738ci turbodiesel.

We have just published English-language details about this model in a light-hearted review:

Action Mobil: Are you MAN enough? (http://squob.com/expedition_vehicles/action-mobil-are-you-man-enough/)

[charlieaarons]

Actually Unicat is recommending MAN for most of their builds also. What surprises me is the preference for MAN over Mercedes Actros, Axor and Atego; which are MAN's direct competitors.
U5000 Unimog is hampered by relatively small 4.8L 218hp 4 cyl motor and ~57mph top speed; U500 has better on-road characteristics and is better offroad than the MAN/Mercedes 4X4/6X6 commercial trucks but much more expensive without any wheelbase or 6X6 options.
Does anyone with direct or 2nd hand knowledge know about frame cracking in MANs? They have 7 or 8mm frames (I think in the 2 smaller series; hopefully at least 9mm in the TGA); U500s are 9mm with an additional 7mm bracing in front. 4X4 Axor (1833) and 4X4/6X6 Actros are 9.5mm.

Charlie

[soenke]

Hey,

I like Unimog and we have been travelling accompanied by Mogs.
Still we decided against an Unimog based camperbuild, these are the main reasons:

the weight
is to much for many small bridges
when stuck heavy equipment is required for recovery
no real dune driving possible
the seize
is to wide for the small bush-tracks made by and for LandCruisers or Land Rovers (can be a real problem on mountain roads or in the rain forrest)
no permission to most national parks in Afrika
no fun driving the narrow streets down town in the medina or narrow roads in a forrest
you have to use a platform, container will not work when shipping
the speed
the portal axles are not made to drive miles at high speed as often requires when traveling...adjusting longer gears and bigger oilreservoirs will just help a little

on the other hand we never got stuck where a Unimog could have brought us further....

greetings Sönke

[Colorado Ron]

Hey,

I like Unimog and we have been travelling accompanied by Mogs.
Still we decided against an Unimog based camperbuild, these are the main reasons:

the weight
is to much for many small bridges
when stuck heavy equipment is required for recovery
no real dune driving possible
the seize
is to wide for the small bush-tracks made by and for LandCruisers or Land Rovers (can be a real problem on mountain roads or in the rain forrest)
no permission to most national parks in Afrika
no fun driving the narrow streets down town in the medina or narrow roads in a forrest
you have to use a platform, container will not work when shipping
the speed
the portal axels are not made to drive miles at high speed as often requires when traveling...adjusting longer gears and bigger oilreservoirs will just help a little

on the other hand we never got stuck where a Unimog could have brought us further....

greetings Sönke


Those are really great points. I actually forgot about the weight requirements on some of the bridges. That would be a bad deal to get all the way down a road, only to find you cant cross a bridge fearing collapse.

[soenke]

Hey Ron, sorry for changing the subject ...what truck is that in your avatar? a 8x8 Pinzgauer???

[charlieaarons]

All the points made except the one about portal boxes are valid for all large vehicles, not just Unimogs. If you want a larger camper, you need a larger chassis. If you don't mind tent camping, a Landcruiser is the way to go.
Regarding the portals: in the latest generation of Mogs (U500/5000) the capacity of the portal box has been increased to 700-800 ml, older mogs are as small as 300 ml. That, combined with 47" tires allows the U500 to be rated at a sustained 100kph or even faster.

Charlie

[bluemog]

Hey,

I like Unimog and we have been travelling accompanied by Mogs.
Still we decided against an Unimog based camperbuild, these are the main reasons:

the weight
is to much for many small bridges
when stuck heavy equipment is required for recovery
no real dune driving possible
the seize
is to wide for the small bush-tracks made by and for LandCruisers or Land Rovers (can be a real problem on mountain roads or in the rain forrest)
no permission to most national parks in Afrika
no fun driving the narrow streets down town in the medina or narrow roads in a forrest
you have to use a platform, container will not work when shipping
the speed
the portal axles are not made to drive miles at high speed as often requires when traveling...adjusting longer gears and bigger oilreservoirs will just help a little

on the other hand we never got stuck where a Unimog could have brought us further....

greetings Sönke

Some of Sonke's points might be valid for the larger Unimogs like they use for Unicats and the like but I don't think they're valid for the smaller ones like the 416 and 1300.

Weight could be a problem if you don't have the right self-recovery equipment along but duning shouldn't be a problem if you have the right tires.

Size on trails shouldn't be any more problem for a 416 or 1300 as both are only the same width as a fullsize pickup (80"). Are Land Cruisers & Land Rovers any narrower? Driving in town isn't any more of a problem either. I drove my Unimog to work a lot of days when I worked in Portland because its fuel mileage wasn't any worse than my Explorers and I could fit it in a standard parking space. Putting a Unimog in a container isn't a problem widthwise. Heightwise you might run into a problem if you don't get a tall container. Luckily mine is a cabrio so I folded the top down when I backed it into my friend's standard height garage door before going overseas. I had four inches between the top of the garage door and the top of the steering wheel. Some people with hard tops get around this by using a cut down set of wheels to use when putting their Unimog into a container.

Speedwise there is a problem with the older style small Unimogs like the 416. While you can put higher ratio gears in the portal cases (fast axles) and on the diffs (super fast axles) the engine doesn't have the torque on the top end to deal with even the smallest grades then. On the 1300's you can put a turbocharger and get the little extra grunt you need. I drove my 416 long distances pulling as much as 10,000 bls behind it and never had a problem with any part of the drivetrain. I just had to allow for plenty of time for the avg 52mph.

[soenke]

Sorry, I don´t know very much about Unimogs...but as far as I noticed you have to build your own to get sufficient travel ability...
I agree best base would be a 416 or 1300 maybe with more power and less weight though high/split gears (wich make it heavy again...)....and a lot of other customizing as bigger oilreservoirs on the portals..etc.
The simpler and less heavy technic is the reason for many people here in europe to use the MAN instead.

There is a guy in Germany, Franz Murr (http://http://www.unimurr.de/forum-unimurr/wbblite/board.php?boardid=28)who has done a lot with Unimogs, I haven´t seen his page mentioned...

http://www.unimurr.de/forum-unimurr/wbblite/board.php?boardid=28

you have to register to participate.


A friend of ours gut stuck with his modified 1300in Iceland in a snowfield, just broke through the surface with the front tires, hanging 1.5 m above the ground in a kind of snow bridge...he was very lucky that a Mercedes testdrive konvoy came a long with heavy equipment..I´ll ask him if I may post the picture...
What I want to say, his cabin is bigger and more comfortable then ours, rivercrossing is easier for him (with hard ground only!) but his Mog weights about 7t with split gears etc..our Cruiser with HDJ 80 technic and the small hydraulic cabin less than half of that, having about the same horsepower...




If you don't mind tent camping, a Landcruiser is the way to go.
Charlie, there are a lot of possibilities to avoid tent camping and still have a Cruiser capable of heavy offroading
our CruiserCampers:

http://up.picr.de/1652445.jpg

http://up.picr.de/1652446.jpg

http://up.picr.de/1652447.jpg

[Colorado Ron]

Hey Ron, sorry for changing the subject ...what truck is that in your avatar? a 8x8 Pinzgauer???


Its actually an extended halflinger, consider a mini pinz.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1328/1052206651_09b40f7761.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1176/1052203555_2186edbe0a.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1252/1053063702_be359fe265.jpg

[soenke]

very nice ,
have never seen so tall and many wheels on a Haflinger :p

[dhackney]

Does anyone with direct or 2nd hand knowledge know about frame cracking in MANs? They have 7 or 8mm frames (I think in the 2 smaller series; hopefully at least 9mm in the TGA);

My first overlander interview in South America yielded comments about MAN truck frames breaking.

"MAN – Very good quality heavy trucks (class 7/8) (require special driver’s license in Germany). Medium duty 4x4 MAN trucks sold to overlanding market have lightweight frames. Wolf has seen multiple examples of frame failures on MAN overlanding rigs. He strongly advocates a minimum frame size of 6mm. "

"Most grievous overlanding rig failures:
- Engine falling out after <200 miles of washboard on a new rig.
- Frame failure (multiple examples, all MAN)"

He had a very entertaining, if painful, anecdote about one particular MAN frame failure that was too long to include in the interview.

Bottom line: if you are considering purchasing or building an expedition rig on a MAN chassis, check the frame thickness.

There are also relevent comments about rooftop tents, other European chassis commonly used for overlanding rigs, etc.

The entire interview is here: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11983

Regarding frame thickness, Wolf's words haunted me throughout Patagonia. I was constantly wondering if our Fuso's thin 4.5mm frame would hold up to the pounding and washboard those famous (or better said, infamous) roads dish out.

As it turned out, the thin frame of the Fuso survived all of that, only to break on a high Ecuadorian road over an Andean pass a year later. I concur with Wolf's observations in his eight years of overlanding in South America - you need a heavy duty frame to withstand the rigors of the high weights, pitching stresses and rough roads of full time overlanding.